Evidence of meeting #143 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sdtc.
A video is available from Parliament.
Board Director, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
We'll obviously endeavour to provide the committee with the information that's been requested.
In terms of funding decisions, we seek independent advice, and those independent advisers are required to follow the same conflict of interest provisions, which have been strengthened based on the Auditor General's review and all of the processes put in place. It's very important that the individual—
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Thank you. I'm almost out of time.
You said the same thing over and over regarding companies that were found to be ineligible: If fraud occurred, you will try to recover the money. In the case of many companies, there was no fraud. That's very clear.
If you try to recover the money or you just stop funding the companies determined to be ineligible, you open yourself up to lawsuits, since the contracts can't be cancelled. What are you going to do about those companies, specifically? It's a very specific question further to what Mr. Drouin asked.
What are you going to do about ineligible companies that did not commit fraud?
Board Director, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
We will need to look at each of these situations on a case-by-case basis to determine the best path forward.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Can you follow up with the answer in writing, please?
Board Director, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
We'll be providing quarterly updates to ISED as per the contribution agreement and the advice of the Auditor General. This is an issue that we will be providing regular updates on.
Bloc
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
I just want to ask Ms. Morgan to get back to the committee with an answer regarding what she's going to do. Would you like me to repeat exactly what I was asking?
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
What are you going to do about projects found to be ineligible by the auditors or consultants, but through no fault of the company? Are you going to terminate the company's funding? What concrete actions is SDTC going to take?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Is that something you could provide to the committee?
I think Madame Sinclair-Desgagné is looking for the other side of the envelope—for what is not being provided—whereas what your group will be providing is on those that are receiving funds.
Did I understand that correctly?
Board Director, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
We'll endeavour to provide more information on this.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
I will wrap this up at the end in terms of timelines and things like that.
I appreciate that, Ms. Morgan.
Next up is Mr. Desjarlais for two and a half minutes, please.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to turn now to the Auditor General's report recommendations, and paragraphs 6.26 and 6.29 specifically. It says, “Sustainable Development Technology Canada should reassess projects approved during the audit period to ensure that they met the goal and objectives of the Sustainable Development Technology Fund and all its eligibility criteria.”
This is a pretty serious bulk of your work, trying to ensure that there's a fair transition, not just for SDTC and taxpayers, but for the companies. I understand that.
In the instances where there are ineligible projects like the ones noted by the Auditor General, in your reassessment of those projects is there a potential outcome where the government, SDTC or NRC begins a process of recovery for those taxpayer dollars?
Board Director, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
That is a possible outcome. We need to look at each one on a case-by-case basis.
As we've noted, if we see evidence of fraud or wrongdoing on the part of recipients, we will undertake recovery and take appropriate action. We will be looking at each case on a case-by-case basis in terms of what the appropriate action is as this process continues.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
It seems important, and I think it's part of your mandate and ability to build public trust and to rebuild SDTC.
It was mentioned by my Liberal colleagues that there may be an instance where the recovery amount is simply too small and it would cost too much for the government to run the operation of trying to recover those funds. What is your perspective on that?
Board Director, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
I think all of those issues will need to be taken into account. That's why we've put in place a process to look at each project individually and to assess the circumstances of each project—
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
I think about the issue of recovery and the importance of recovering funds that were given or granted to an organization or a company that was not eligible. Those should be recovered.
This is the same policy that the government has right now for COVID recipients. If you were an ineligible COVID recipient, they want to claw it back right now, and many of these people are just $5, $10 or maybe even $100 over the limit. They're barely ineligible, and they're very poor. They're working-class people, and they're finding it very difficult to pay back this amount of money.
Why is it different for the companies? When I asked that question about how we treat individuals and how we treat people when they're just over the ineligibility line for COVID, the government said they're going to recover all of it. When it comes to these huge companies that are getting all this funding, it seems as though there isn't a clear answer or any kind of confidence you're giving me or Canadians that any amount will be recovered for these ineligible projects.
Board Director, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
It's important that we follow a clear and transparent process.
In the case where there's evidence of fraud or wrongdoing, the board will take action. If there are funds, for example, that are ineligible costs or areas where the funding exceeds SDTC's contribution agreements, then we will of course pursue those. We need to look at each project on an individual basis, and the board will take appropriate action that could include recovery.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you.
You'll have another opportunity, Mr. Desjarlais.
I'm turning now to Mr. Cooper.
You have the floor for five minutes, please.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Morgan, you have repeatedly said that where there is evidence of fraud or wrongdoing on the part of recipients, it will be considered for the purposes of eligibility. You emphasized time and again the word “recipient”.
Are you considering conflicts of interest on the part of the former corrupt board members in assessing eligibility for projects? That is a yes-or-no question.
Board Director, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
The process that we've developed to look at projects in terms of a funding restart—which is primarily what we're talking about—will address issues of both eligibility and conflict of interest.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Ms. Morgan, my time is limited, and I asked you a very specific question that you haven't answered.
It's an hour and a half into the hearing. You've been asked this question and others in similar terms, but you haven't actually given a direct answer.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
This is just a reminder.
Ms. Morgan, while I appreciate you are here to answer questions, I will remind you that the time is the member's. I know there's always back-and-forth. When they insist on ending your answer for whatever reason, could you just yield to them, please? I appreciate that you've been doing that generally. Time is limited, and we are coming to the end.
Mr. Cooper, you have four minutes. You can restate the question if you want to, but I think it was heard. The four minutes are yours.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
It's a yes-or-no question. Are conflicts of interest on the part of the former corrupt board being considered and assessed for the purpose of eligibility of those very projects that were approved and went out the door involving conflicts of interest of those board members? Answer with a yes or no.