Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2024

[Voices]

Oh, oh! (laughter)

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Sorry. I meant 90 seconds.

[Voices]

Oh, oh! (laughter)

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Okay.

In Ms. Verschuren's case, you said that you urged her to check that she understood her obligations and the definition of a conflict of interest and the appearance of conflict of interest. You also said that her appointment was based on merit. What merit did Ms. Verschuren demonstrate when she had a whole record of potential conflicts of interest or appearances of conflicts of interest?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

We have discussed this previously, but again, in that set of circumstances, I did say before and I would say again that it was a best practice that she was referred to the office. The Ethics Commissioner's report talks about the fact that she spent a fair amount of time with the office going through her personal circumstances to make sure that she would be aligned with the legislation and could have mitigation measures put in place for her conflict of interest.

As we've talked about here.... I know the Ethics Commissioner was here earlier in the week, and he and his office emphasized, as I would emphasize again, that all the tools were in place to protect the board members. Those, unfortunately, were just not adhered to, and they actually did not get very good legal advice.

We do warn candidates that, ultimately, the Ethics Commissioner is the adjudicator and the administrator of the act and has final word on conflicts of interest. That's where they should have gone to get any source of nuance in terms of how to deal with some of the issues that they were facing as board members, not outside legal counsel.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

To begin our second round, Mr. Cooper, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. McClymont, a motion adopted by this committee ordered the production of all communications between the PCO, then minister Bains' office, the Prime Minister's Office and the Department of Industry respecting the appointment of Annette Verschuren as the chair of the green slush fund.

In response to that order, you wrote to the committee on behalf of the PCO indicating that, aside from one document that is being hidden from this committee by the Trudeau government on the basis of cabinet confidence, no communications can be found. How is that possible?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

It's a fair question to ask. We did go carefully through the documents. We had nothing on hand. I was in Rima Hamoui's position at the time of the appointment, and I have racked my own brain to make sure there's nothing more we could share with the committee, but we do not have any records.

I would—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

With the greatest of respect, I find it incredible that we have a government appointment of a chair who is responsible for overseeing one billion taxpayer dollars, and the position of the PCO, the Prime Minister's department, is that not a single communication other than one—not even an email—can be traced in the PCO, the Prime Minister's Office, the Department of Industry and former minister Bains' department and office.

I have a real tough time accepting that.

[Donnalyn McClymont]

As I mentioned at the outset, we've provided all of the documents that we have. The advice letters are the final records that we keep of the deliberations of the selection committee and the advice provided to the minister. We do not maintain other documents.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

There's not a single email that can be found in anyone's inbox in the Prime Minister's Office, the Department of Industry and former minister Bains' office—not even a single email.

I have to say that the reason I'm having more difficulty accepting that answer is based on the news of today, in which Blacklock's reported this morning that an IT official in Justin Trudeau's government deleted emails and texts relating to Trudeau's $60-million arrive scam. In other words, the Trudeau government was wilfully destroying evidence to cover up arrive scam.

Now we have another Liberal corruption scandal, involving $400 million that improperly went out the door during Ms. Verschuren's tenure as chair of SDTC, and this committee is trying to get to the bottom of why former Liberal minister Navdeep Bains appointed—

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Just one second, Mr. Cooper.

Yes, Mr. Drouin.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

He's making false accusations. The member knows that it's a Conservative member who made donations—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Drouin, this is not a point of order. Your side is up in a minute.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I just want to point it out on the record. The truth is important, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Drouin, we go back and forth and, hopefully, at the end of this process we do get to the truth.

A Liberal member is up next, in about two minutes.

Mr. Cooper, you have the floor.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Chair, this committee is trying to get to the bottom of why former Liberal minister Navdeep Bains appointed Ms. Verschuren as chair of SDTC, notwithstanding the fact that she had blatant conflicts of interest and he knew about those conflicts of interest. Now, all of a sudden, there are no records and communications that can be found. How convenient.

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, I would just reiterate that we have done our best not just to provide the documentation that we have, but to be as forthcoming as we can be, to find the right balance and to support the committee in its work by redacting personal information but giving the minutes of the committee meetings and the outcomes of the reference checks. All of that information was provided to the committee, and we took the exceptional measure of seeking Ms. Verschuren's approval and consulting the Privacy Commissioner to provide as much detail as we could.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

With the greatest of respect, Mr. Chair, all I can say is that if, in fact, there are no emails, no communications whatsoever that can be found, it demonstrates that Ms. Verschuren's appointment was cooked up by Minister Bains to see that Justin Trudeau's preferred candidate was put in place. It demonstrates that the process.... There was no process. It was cooked up by Minister Bains. It was a sham to get this conflict-ridden person, Ms. Verschuren, who was receiving $12 million in funding from SDTC at the time of her appointment. It's a disgrace.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Up next, we have Ms. Yip for five minutes, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you for coming.

We are rather spirited today. Would you like to respond to the assertion Mr. Cooper just made? I'm sure we'd all like to hear the truth.

[Donnalyn McClymont]

I would say that it is pretty standard that we wouldn't have emails back and forth with the minister's office or the Prime Minister's Office. The deliberations of the selection committee, as I mentioned, are held in the advice letters, and we provided that. It would not be standard for us to be privy to any kinds of conversations that would happen at the political level in relation to an appointment, so we would not have emails from the Prime Minister's Office or the minister's office, or be privy to any of those discussions.

I feel that we have done our utmost to provide as much information as possible to support the committee in its study, while doing our best to respect the individual's privacy and the Access to Information Act and the Privacy Act.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you for clearing that up.

You are unable to provide this committee with board minutes from the selection committee that considered the Verschuren appointment, citing that these records are “transitory in nature and disposed of once an appointment is made.” Your letter to this committee states, “Official records of deliberations are reflected in...the advice letter, and...candidate summaries”. I'm wondering whether you can speak to this.

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Mr. Chair, as I mentioned, the selection committees are like an interview board, so we take notes on the interview as it transacts. We have individuals on staff who serve as scribes, and they take that information from the selection committee and put it into the advice letter. Ostensibly, what you have are the minutes of the selection committee, the final formal document.

We do between 30 and 60 processes a year. We interview between 5,000 and 10,000 people. We cannot, under the Privacy Act, hold that level of information on every single person from every single interview. We try to keep good records in terms of the final documents, which are the advice letters.