Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 30th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Very good, then. Thank you.

We're turning now to Mr. Perkins, and then we will hear from Mr. Erskine-Smith.

You have the floor for five minutes, Mr. Perkins. Please go ahead.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Bains.

Do you know who Leah Lawrence is?

[Navdeep Bains]

Yes. She is the former CEO of Sustainable Development Technology Canada.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

You can't recall talking to Ms. Verschuren during her appointment process, although she testified before committee that you did.

Do you recall talking to Ms. Leah Lawrence about it, and asking her to vet the two names?

[Navdeep Bains]

No, I do not recall having such conversations.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Do you recall any conversations with ADM Noseworthy? He sat in every board meeting and told you and your office that the proposed board chair, Ms. Verschuren—contrary to MP Erskine-Smith—was the first in the history of SDTC to be appointed as chair of the board with a conflict of interest.

[Navdeep Bains]

Mr. Chair, as I mentioned, individuals should follow the Conflict of Interest Act. That's point one.

Point two is this: Again, no issues were raised for my attention in terms of the conduct of the board on a day-to-day basis, because this was an arm's-length organization.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Do you recall the former head of corporate affairs for SDTC, who, prior to that, worked in the current Prime Minister's Office? Do you recall her talking to you and your office about the conflict of interest?

[Navdeep Bains]

Again, I don't know who you're referring to.

Respectfully, as I said, these appointments were made over five years ago, so I don't have specific recollections about conversations or names on lists.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to move a motion because of the apparent amnesia of the witness. I'd have thought he would better prepare for committee, now that he's had a couple of shots at it over the last couple of months.

There are some other folks we need to hear from at this committee regarding the appointment process, in order to fill in the gaps that former Liberal minister Bains conveniently can't remember.

I move:

That the committee invite former president of SDTC Leah Lawrence to appear in relation to the ongoing study of the Auditor General's 2024 Report 6 on Sustainable Development Technology Canada; and that the committee also invite Andrew Noseworthy, former assistant deputy minister at the Department of Industry.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Hold on one second.

Yes, I see you, Madame Sinclair-Desgagné.

Mr. Perkins, have you submitted the motion to the clerk, as read out?

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Yes, I believe we have, but—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I see Ms. Khalid as well.

I am going to suspend here. We're going to get the motion to you all and we'll come back in about two or three minutes.

Mr. Bains, in the meantime, if you want to get up and stretch your legs for a few minutes, you're certainly welcome to do that. Just hold on, please. You know how these things go sometimes. They can be short or long. I'd like to test the temperature of the room before making a decision.

If you want to step out for three to five minutes, that's no problem.

[Navdeep Bains]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

This meeting is suspended for three to five minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I call this meeting back to order.

I have several hands up. Currently, I have Madame Sinclair-Desgagné after Mr. Perkins, and then Ms. Khalid and Mr. Erskine-Smith.

Mr. Perkins, you have the floor.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's evident, and I sort of did it in the questioning, that I believe these two witnesses are key in discovering the reporting on the 82% of conflicts when Mr. Noseworthy was in every board meeting and directly responsible to report, and the former minister claims he was unaware of anything that was going on. This surprises me. Why else would an ADM be there?

Second, I think the former CEO can shed some light on this appointment process, since, as the leader of the organization, she was involved in the communications and the discussions between the minister's office and the ADM on the appointment and selection process for this particular chair, Ms. Verschuren.

I know the Ethics Commissioner's report says two, but when he was questioned at this committee, his office admitted there were actually 24 conflicts that were rolled up under two categories. That's for those who haven't taken the time to read his testimony.

I think it's important, in trying to get to the bottom of this, that we have these two witnesses before the committee, whom we haven't had appear.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Perkins.

Next on the list is Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I support Mr. Perkins' motion. I think we can get more answers from the people listed in the motion.

I would, however, like to amend the motion by adding the names of two individuals whose comments, I believe, will be very relevant to our study. Here are their names.

The first is Zoë Kolbuc, vice-president of SDTC. She was in that position when the Auditor General conducted her audit, and she still is.

The second is Douglas McConnachie. He was the assistant deputy minister and could certainly give us more answers. The witness's current testimony raises even more questions than we had before, so I hope that hearing from these additional individuals will help move our study forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right. I'm going to suspend....

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, could you have the two names to us in a few minutes?

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

They should have already gone out. You'll have them in 30 seconds, if not 10. I demand a lot of my staff.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Very good.

Shortly we will be on an amendment to the motion to add two additional names. Those names are being sent to the clerk momentarily, at which point we will send them out.

For the sake of debate, if it's all right with Ms. Khalid and Mr. Erskine-Smith, I'll put them to the top of the list to speak to the amendment.

Mr. Bains, I'm going to come back to you in a second. I'm going to take the temperature from a government member. If this is going to be a lengthy process, I will look for agreement to excuse you, but let me first check with the government members, because one time I acted a bit too hastily and was politely reprimanded or politely scolded or talked to. I'm going to check with the clerk here.

Give me a few seconds, everyone.

I'm just waiting for those names. I'll come right back to you as soon as the clerk has them and they're sent out. Then I'll go to Ms. Khalid.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Everyone, I'd like your attention, please.

The amendment to the motion has been sent out to you all.

Ms. Khalid, you have the floor. Then it's Mr. Erskine-Smith and after that it's Mr. Brock.

Go ahead, please.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I appreciate all of our members' concerns on this issue, and I really do respect the way that this issue has been raised, although I think it could have been done with a little bit more class.

Ultimately, I'm not sure what the objective is here. The majority of the witnesses who are presented in the amendment and the main motion—I'll speak to both of them all at once, Chair, with respect to efficiency—have appeared at previous committees before on this exact same issue, and I'm happy to highlight which committees they've attended, and when.

Leah Lawrence appeared twice on SDTC, at the ethics committee on November 8, 2023, and the industry committee on January 31, 2024. Andrew Noseworthy has appeared twice already as well, at the industry committee on December 11, 2023, and on June 5, 2024. ADM Douglas McConnachie appeared on SDTC at the ethics committee on November 8, 2023.

I'm not sure if members opposite feel that the witnesses are not giving them the answers they want. I'm not sure if there's any misconception as to what has happened. I think this has been a very, very well-documented affair thus far with respect to what has happened. I'm really not sure about the next steps, and I'm hoping that members opposite can perhaps clarify for me what the next steps are going to be.

At this point in time, we can keep calling witnesses back time and time again and then ask them the same questions again and again. Ultimately, what is it that we're trying to achieve here? If we as a committee can get to that understanding, perhaps we can outline a plan ourselves, based on consensus, as to where we want to go and how we're going to get there, because right now it looks like we're trying to grasp at straws. I don't think that is the best way for our committee to spend its time.

While I respect members and their interest in exploring this issue, I would encourage members to also note what the endgame is and perhaps work backwards from that endgame to where we are now. I don't think that this is what's happening. I think calling in people again and again from one committee to another and another is not helping them achieve what they want to achieve here. If they're trying to catch “gotcha” moments or whatever their objectives are, which are very unclear to me, I don't think this is the way to do it.

Chair, I park my comments there, but I hope that members understand and can outline why, how and what the objectives are.

Thanks, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Could I ask members if there is agreement to excuse the witness?

I'm seeing a thumbs-up from Mr. Erskine-Smith, who is next.

Mr. Bains, if you're still with us, I want to thank you for your testimony today, and I appreciate your offer that if we have additional questions, you'll answer them in writing. If that happens, the clerk will follow up with you.

Thank you very much.

I'm going to turn now to Mr. Erskine-Smith. You have the floor to debate the amendment to the motion, please.