Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 30th, 2024

[Navdeep Bains]

I think the member has answered that question. There was a process for how these funds were allocated.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

There's another refusal to answer.

In the 48 times that Steven Guilbeault lobbied the PMO with meetings with Gerald Butts, in the five years that you were minister and he was lobbying between 2016 and 2019, do you recall any of those meetings when Steven Guilbeault, Gerald Butts and you were talking about Sustainable Development Technology Canada, yes or no?

[Navdeep Bains]

The answer to your question is that anyone who has any official engagement with the government is properly registered. Sustainable Development Technology Canada is an arm's-length organization. They make independent decisions on how to allocate the funds, and they work with management on a day-to-day basis to address these issues, Mr. Chair.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

There were seven non-answers in a row. This is what led to the privilege discussion last time.

I'll ask another question that I've asked of you. Why did you think it was appropriate to appoint a chair of the board, the first one in the history of SDTC, who had a conflict and was doing business with SDTC before you appointed her?

[Navdeep Bains]

Mr. Chair, I've been answering the questions, and I look forward to answering this question as well. It's important that I provide answers to the members because the work that they do is important.

Ms. Verschuren's credentials were well known. Her announcement was made public. She was appointed by former prime minister Stephen Harper; a former finance minister, Minister Flaherty; and a former industry minister, Christian Paradis, as well. As the PC official said in her testimony, she was vetted and she met the requirements.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

As someone who made over 100 GIC appointments, was it your regular practice to appoint people to GIC appointments who had already been doing business with the organization? Was that your normal way of doing business as a minister of the Crown?

[Navdeep Bains]

Again, to answer that question in greater detail, it's important to note that all the individuals who applied to different roles or positions needed to go through the new appointment process. These names were recommended to me by PCO, and then I made a Governor in Council recommendation.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

There were 10 non-answers.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Up next is Ms. Yip.

You have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Bains, for coming again.

Mr. Bains, I'm looking for some clarity with the motion that brought you here today.

The committee invited you here, given it felt there were contradictions between your testimony and that of Ms. Verschuren and given that she had stated at the industry committee that she had not applied for the position.

In their correspondence on October 4 to this committee, the PCO confirms that Ms. Verschuren did in fact apply for the position. In addition, I understand that Ms. Verschuren, through her lawyers, wrote to the industry committee to correct the record to say that that she had, in fact, applied for the position.

Is it your understanding that she applied for the position?

[Navdeep Bains]

I appreciate the opportunity to answer that question as well.

I indicated in my previous remarks when I was at committee last time, and it was confirmed by testimony given by the Privy Council official, that Ms. Verschuren did apply. She did go through the new appointments process, a process that ultimately saw over 100 people apply. That is my understanding, based on the testimony provided by the PCO official. Her name went through a rigorous process whereby individuals were vetted, and then ultimately recommendations were made to me for a Governor in Council appointment.

Again, to summarize, she did apply, and ultimately that name was recommended to me along with other names, and then I made a Governor in Council recommendation.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

The PCO has stated that it is customary for departments to reach out to stakeholders and meritorious individuals to share the word about positions like that of the SDTC chairperson, and that ministers and departments would typically look to share the word with as many people as possible. Is that your understanding too?

[Navdeep Bains]

That is correct. It was very common for a number of people, including me, to encourage as many Canadians as possible to apply.

This was a new process. It was open to all Canadians, and we wanted to have more, not fewer, options. It wasn't uncommon for me to ask multiple people to apply for the same role because it was critical that we had Canadians engaged in this new merit-based process that was open and transparent.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Could you speak to the new process at that time?

[Navdeep Bains]

What I recall is that in 2016, a new process was established. Regardless of whether you had a position, were applying for that same position or were applying to a new position, you needed to go through this process in which I believe you would fill out and answer a bunch of questions. They would then determine who would be vetted and ultimately interviewed. Then recommendations were made to the respective ministers who were responsible for those portfolios.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

When the PCO first published the appointment opening online in September 2018, did your department subsequently send a blast email to stakeholders?

[Navdeep Bains]

I don't know if a blast email was sent. However, I do think that it's important to note that every effort was taken, from what I recollect during my tenure, to encourage as many people as possible to apply. As I've stated, the PCO official, in her remarks at this committee, indicated that over 100 people did apply.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Then you're not sure how the position was advertised.

[Navdeep Bains]

The advertisement of the position was public. I thought you were asking if stakeholders were sent a blast. The positions were very public. They were advertised. They were open to everyone.

Thank you for clarifying that.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Ms. Verschuren was no stranger to the department. Is that correct?

[Navdeep Bains]

As I've said before, my understanding is that she was well regarded by the previous administration and government for the work she had done in the private sector, as well as in the public sector. She was appointed by Stephen Harper, Minister Flaherty and Minister Paradis, and one of those appointments was for an advisory role on the science, technology and innovation council at ISED.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

She had previously served, since 2017, on the clean technology economic strategy table set up by your department. Is that correct?

[Navdeep Bains]

I believe she played a number of different roles in working with government officials, going back to Stephen Harper's tenure. That is correct.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Well, this is the first time that I've heard that she also participated in an advisory role for Minister Paradine. Is that correct?

[Navdeep Bains]

To the best of my recollection, she had several appointments that were made by the previous Conservative government: economic advisory appointments, supporting the work at ISED, etc. I believe I provided that information—who appointed her and in what year—in my testimony the last time I spoke here at the committee.

Again, I'm willing to provide any answers in writing if the member wants.