Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 30th, 2024

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Go ahead, Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

That's quite disrespectful, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Khalid, I did anticipate that this meeting would be a little bumpy because we're dealing with a former official who I'm certainly glad has appeared today.

Mr. Bains is not unfamiliar with the push and pull of this place, so I am confident that he's going to be able to respond to Mr. Cooper—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I'd like to speak on that same point, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

—and I'm not worried about Mr. Bains' ability here.

Go ahead, Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

On that same point, Chair, it's not about whether a witness is able to handle rudeness or not; it is the conduct of our committee that concerns me.

In the public accounts committee, I would prefer that we be respectful to anybody and everybody who comes before our committee, whether we agree with them or disagree with them.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Khalid, you would agree that there's lots of testimony out there that is contradictory, and members, I think, on both sides are pressing as hard as they can for clarity or, as Mr. Drouin likes to say, truth.

I'll turn things back over to Mr. Cooper for a minute and a half.

Go ahead, please.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Former Liberal minister Bains, the Ethics Commissioner's report says that Ms. Verschuren specifically raised the fact that she had a conflict of interest with you. Are you claiming that you don't recall that Ms. Verschuren raised that conflict of interest with you?

[Navdeep Bains]

Again, Mr. Chair, I've answered that question a number of times. I've been crystal clear that the names that were recommended to me went through a vetting process. Again, that's the answer I provided.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I asked you if you recall that conversation. Do you not recall that Leah Lawrence, the former CEO of the green slush fund, spoke to officials in your office and that the manager of communications and projects at SDTC also informed your office of Ms. Verschuren's conflict? Do you not recall any of that? Did none of that get to you? Is that what you're trying to represent?

[Navdeep Bains]

Again, Mr. Chair, as I said in my opening remarks, I don't recall having such conversations, but it wouldn't be uncommon for me to encourage multiple people to apply for roles. I think it's important to know that—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I would put it to you, former Liberal minister Bains, that you knew full well that Ms. Verschuren had a conflict of interest, and you simply didn't care. As a result, you appointed someone who was conflict-ridden, and that set a culture of conflict that led to conflict after conflict and mismanagement and corruption at SDTC, as chronicled in the Auditor General's report.

Do you accept any responsibility for those damning findings?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Cooper. I'm afraid that is your time. I will come back to you.

Mr. Drouin, you have the floor, please, for five minutes.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We have certainly spoken a lot about amnesia, and I'm hoping that the official opposition spent Wednesday morning reminding their leader where those six homes were built, because we're still waiting for the answer, but I welcome the criticism.

Mr. Bains, I want to ask a question, because the opposition is trying to paint a picture of you being personally involved in the minutiae of SDTC. You personally nominated seven candidates, a minority on the board. There were 15 who are not nominated by a GIC, so it has nothing to do with politics, but seven of them....

Somehow, if you wanted to really control the committee, you would appoint somebody who was appointed by former Conservative minister Paradis and former Conservative minister Flaherty, whom I respect, and former Conservative prime minister Stephen Harper. If you were trying to pull out a big Liberal scheme, would you appoint former Conservative candidates to this board?

[Navdeep Bains]

Chair, I'd like to thank the member for the question.

To answer that question, I think it's important to note that Ms. Verschuren's name went through a process that was led by the PCO. The points highlighted by the member speak to her credentials and her work in government. Regardless of which government she served in, we were looking for a person who had the experience. She went through that vetting process and her name was recommended because of that experience that she had on both the public side and the private side.

I know that members have raised questions about Ms. Verschuren and her roles in different organizations. All that information was public knowledge. People were fully aware of the work she had done in the private sector and in the public sector. When the chair was announced, there was a press release. This was public knowledge.

This was done with openness and with transparency. This was done as part of the new appointments process. It was done to engage Canadians across the country. My understanding, based on the PCO official, was that over 100 individuals applied for this role.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Bains, you may not be aware—because you weren't working hard for the next leader of the Conservative Party—but obviously Ms. Verschuren did the same thing that Mr. Perkins did on the other side. Both donated the same amount to a Conservative candidate. The idea that this was a Liberal hack connected to Liberals—I can't buy it. I don't know many Liberals who are donating to the Conservative Party of Canada.

Regardless of that, I want to talk about governance.

You've talked often about how in SDTC or in any government agencies, whether it's the minister of PSPC.... The idea that the minister of PSPC, for instance, would be involved in daily operations at Canada Post is ridiculous.

How much time did you spend...or did you have any sign-offs on SDTC on a contribution agreement that they would have signed with a client that they had done business with?

[Navdeep Bains]

I've stated on a number of occasions, including in my opening remarks, that Sustainable Development Technology Canada is an arm's-length organization. It has an independent board that oversees the day-to-day operations of management. It ultimately determines how the monies will be allocated. This is a decision it makes independently. That's how this is structured.

As you've highlighted, the minister is responsible for appointing seven of the 15 board members, but ultimately the board oversees their conduct.

With respect to the whole notion of conflict of interest that's been raised on a number of occasions, I understand the question that's being raised, but the onus is on all public office holders to engage with the Ethics Commissioner with regard to any real or perceived conflicts of interest. That is the way many public office holders conduct themselves, and that is my understanding of what Ms. Verschuren did before she was appointed as chair.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Obviously, what you're saying is that public office holders are not beholden to a Governor in Council appointment or to be reporting to their ministers and asking, “Minister, do I have a conflict of interest?”

Obviously, there's a non-partisan body that reports to Parliament, and that would be the Ethics Commissioner. That is the proper way, when you take away the politics, to govern themselves. We have, in this case, some members who didn't do that. I wouldn't expect a minister of the Crown to be responsible for making a decision on conflict of interest.

[Navdeep Bains]

Yes. As I've indicated, it's important to note that if you're a public office holder and you're dealing with either real or perceived conflicts, actually it's the proper practice to engage with the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner to say, “Look, this is the situation I'm in. I need advice, feedback, guidance and counsel in making sure that the proper rules are followed to avoid any conflicts of interest.”

That is incumbent upon all public office holders, for the Governor in Council appointments that I've made as well as for members in this committee and anyone else who serves in the public domain.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Bains.

That is the time.

We now go to Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Mr. Bains, I'll rephrase the question I asked you previously about the COVID‑19 payments.

Your department knew about the conflicts of interest declared by board members, not only because it had access to the minutes of the board meetings, but also because Mr. Noseworthy, your assistant deputy minister, attended the board meetings at which the board approved practically all the COVID‑19 payments.

Were you aware of that?

[Navdeep Bains]

I recall that during the pandemic, funds were allocated to a number of organizations, including Sustainable Development Technology Canada. That is the extent to which monies were allocated. How they were disbursed was never brought to my attention, because, as I indicated, that's a decision the board would have made.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Your assistant deputy minister attended the board meetings and witnessed board members who had declared having conflicts of interest not recuse themselves. Nevertheless, that information never came to your attention. The assistant deputy minister of your department never sent the information up the chain and didn't even find the board members' conduct shocking. Perhaps he was used to that kind of thing.

[Navdeep Bains]

The way you have presented the question.... I did not receive any such information from the ADM regarding the conduct of the board members.