Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 30th, 2024

[Navdeep Bains]

Mr. Chair, as I've indicated, I very much respect the work of the Auditor General and the findings that were presented.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

As a minister in the “food chain”, if you will—I'm an ecologist, so I think in those terms—one of your main roles was to make sure that the act behind this was adhered to. One of your roles under that act was filling board appointments. You mentioned that you signed off on the board appointments. I believe you said the recommendations came from the PCO, and then you recommended them to cabinet, where they were approved.

I'm not talking so much about the initial appointments now. There were times when board members left the board and there were many vacancies. That went on for some time. From my own experience, I've sat on a couple of cabinet-appointed boards and administrative tribunals. There always seem to be issues around ministerial appointments taking forever.

I wonder if you were aware of those openings on the board, and why they weren't filled at a time when it seemed there was a real need to have board action in order to do a lot of important things. There were very few board members there. I wonder if you can speak about that. That was your role under the act. You were supposed to make those appointments to fill those positions.

[Navdeep Bains]

Again, I appreciate the opportunity to answer that question.

You're absolutely correct. The minister was responsible for appointing seven of the 15 board members. That process was undertaken. The appointments were made. The remaining appointments were done independently, but seven of the 15 were the responsibility of the minister of ISED, and I did that.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

From my understanding, there were times when the number of board positions, even ones you were responsible for, were left open for periods of time, which I find troubling.

I want to now turn to the conflict of interest situation.

When I was on a couple of administrative tribunals or boards, we were given lessons from judges about what conflict of interest was in order to make sure we didn't act in a conflict of interest. As I recall, the test for conflict of interest is not so much whether I'm going to make any money or get any benefit; it's about the public perception of that conflict—what the person on the street would think. If a person is appointed to a role and they already have a company doing that work, what would the person on the street think? It strikes me that in many of these cases, the perception would be that there is definitely a conflict of interest there.

Can you explain how it got past the PCO, you and cabinet without someone saying, “Hey, maybe we should appoint someone who's good at financial markets and things like that, but who doesn't have positions directly related to the fund we're talking about”?

[Navdeep Bains]

Again, thank you very much for the question.

As I've answered before, the vetting was done based on the person's credentials, recognizing that if any such conflicts existed, the onus was on the individual to seek the appropriate advice. To my understanding, based on the testimony provided by Ms. Verschuren, she did reach out to the Ethics Commissioner to get advice, and then ultimately this recommendation was made.

I also believe it's important that, as you say, when individuals are on the board, they, along with other public office holders, hold themselves to the highest possible standard when it comes to dealing with conflicts of interest. I think that's the key take-away here.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'll leave it there for now. I'll come back to you later.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. I'll give time back to you later, then.

We will begin our second round, which consists of six members with various times.

Mr. Cooper, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Former Liberal minister Bains, you continue to be less than forthcoming about your active involvement in hand-picking conflict-ridden Annette Verschuren as chair of SDTC. You have repeatedly represented that you got a recommendation from the PCO and that it was only thereafter that you made the decision to appoint Ms. Verschuren, as if your role was passive, but that isn't true, and you know it not to be true.

You received a list of five recommended candidates from the PCO in March of 2019. You ignored that list. In April of 2019, you contacted Ms. Verschuren and asked her to apply for the role. It was only thereafter that Ms. Verschuren applied. It wasn't the PCO that reached out to her; it was you, and that is detailed in the Ethics Commissioner's report, so why do you continue to mislead the committee?

[Navdeep Bains]

As I've indicated, these names were recommended by the PCO. They went through the vetting process. As the PCO official has indicated, over 100 people applied. This was open to everyone. This was a process that people could—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Former Liberal minister Bains, you hand-picked her. That is established. You're misleading the committee. That's now very clear, just as you continue to not answer questions.

I'll move on. Who asked you to contact Ms. Verschuren to apply as chair of the green slush fund? Who called you to tap her on the shoulder? Was it someone in the PMO?

[Navdeep Bains]

To answer that question, as I stated in my opening remarks, I don't recall any such conversations, but it's not uncommon for me to speak with multiple people, even for the same role, to apply. As the previous—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Former Liberal minister Bains, I'll move on. Since you can't recall this and you can't recall that, maybe there is something you will recall, which is that you knew Ms. Verschuren had a conflict of interest in that her company, NRStor, was receiving $12 million in funding from SDTC at the time of her appointment. You knew that and you appointed her anyway. Isn't that right?

[Navdeep Bains]

Ms. Verschuren's credentials are well known. All that information is—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Former Liberal minister Bains, I didn't ask about Ms. Verschuren's credentials. I asked you whether you knew that she had a conflict of interest at the time you made the decision to appoint her—yes or no.

[Navdeep Bains]

As I've stated, Ms. Verschuren went through the vetting process. Her name was recommended—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Former Liberal minister Bains, I asked you a yes-or-no question. Did you know that she had a conflict of interest at the time you appointed her as chair of SDTC—yes or no?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

There's a point of order, Mr. Cooper.

Go ahead, Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I have two separate points. The first is with regard to the respect for witnesses as they come before our committee. I've heard the member opposite say a lot of interesting things and pose a question that he thinks is a question but is actually a statement and then not allow the witness to answer the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

What is your second point, Ms. Khalid?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

It's on relevance, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

As I've said, with some back-and-forth and with courtesy, members are entitled to try to press witnesses for more specific answers, something that Mr. Cooper is doing. I think we're here today to answer these questions, so I'm not sure about relevance.

Look, this is going well in that members are being allotted time and Mr. Bains is providing answers that some members wish to probe further.

Mr. Cooper, you have just under two minutes left.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

It's a yes-or-no question, former Liberal minister Bains. Did you know that she had a conflict of interest at the time of her appointment, yes or no?

[Navdeep Bains]

Again, these names were presented to me. They went through the vetting process, and based on that, I made a recommendation.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Former Liberal minister Bains, your amnesia is unacceptable. Ms. Verschuren said that she spoke to you—