Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 30th, 2024

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and through you, thank you, Mr. Bains, for joining us here this afternoon.

I want to pick up again on the appointment of Ms. Verschuren as chair of SDTC.

Where I'm struggling is that on the one hand, you're saying that this was a new appointments process that the government had put in place. Where I struggle is that the PCO informed this committee that the application for this position for chair was open from September 21, 2018, until October 12, 2018; that 54 people applied; and that Annette Verschuren was not one of those people.

Then we find out from testimony from Ms. Verschuren that “I was requested to consider being an applicant.”

The application period reopened and Ms. Verschuren applied, after being requested to apply, on April 30, 2019, which was six months after the original application period had been opened.

Did you request that the application period be extended?

[Navdeep Bains]

Pertaining to the number of PCO advice letters I received, I believe it wasn't uncommon to get multiple letters and multiple recommendations for positions that people applied to. In this particular instance, that was the case.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

You're telling me that of those 54 applicants, not one had a clean record, with no conflicts of interest, who could have been appointed. You could have avoided all this mess had you accepted one of those 54 appointments, but none of those 54 were qualified.

[Navdeep Bains]

No, what I'm saying is that sometimes you receive multiple letters and you take a look at it holistically. My understanding, according to the PCO official, was that 54 people applied, and I believe 47 applied after that. It's great to see more people apply, not fewer. That means there are more names in the system. I believe, according to the PCO official, that three candidates were also interviewed.

The point I'm making is that it's not uncommon to have multiple rounds, multiple vettings and multiple names.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I'll just stop you there. All else being equal, would you at least agree that it would have been preferable to have named someone who didn't have conflicts of interest? Would it not have been preferable to accept one of those other nearly 100 applicants had they not had conflicts of interest? Would you at least agree with that?

[Navdeep Bains]

I would make two points, Chair, to the member.

One, a position is open until it's filled. Names keep on coming to the system until an announcement is made. Two, when the announcement for Ms. Verschuren was made, it was well received. It was something that I know was public. People understood the work that Ms. Verschuren had done for the previous Conservative government and her reputation as a business leader.

What I'm getting at is that it was all public.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I want to get back to the point, though. With the benefit of hindsight, at least, would you agree that it would have been preferable not to have nominated Ms. Verschuren but to have instead nominated someone who didn't have a conflict of interest? With the benefit of hindsight, would you at least agree with that point?

[Navdeep Bains]

Respectfully, if I may, Mr. Chair, I think the core issue here is people following the Conflict of Interest Act and holding themselves to the obligations under that act.

With regard to Ms. Verschuren's credentials, they were impeccable. She was highly regarded in both the public and private sectors.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

You mentioned in a previous response that the onus is on the individual to follow the rules. Is there not a similar onus on you as well, as the responsible minister under the Canada Foundation for Sustainable Development Technology Act, to ensure that people who are put into those positions don't have conflicts of interest? Is there not also an onus on you to make sure that you're not putting people in who have clear conflicts of interest and that you are aware of those conflicts of interest when you are making the appointments?

[Navdeep Bains]

There are a few components to that.

One, there's the responsibility of the minister to appoint seven of the 15 people through the new appointments process, which vets these individuals. That was done. Second, it's important to note that the individuals have the credentials that meet the requirements. In this particular case, Ms. Verschuren had the qualifications. More importantly, her reputation as a businesswoman, as a business leader, was well known.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Be very quick, Mr. Nater.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I just want to see this: Could you at least agree that appointing someone without conflicts of interest, who would not be in a position to fund their own businesses—would you at least admit, with the benefit of hindsight—that this would have been preferable?

[Navdeep Bains]

The preference is for people to respect and follow the Conflict of Interest Act. I think that's the take-away.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Up next is Ms. Yip for five minutes, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Balsillie, the previous chair of SDTC, has stated publicly that the government was looking to replace him and find a replacement quickly, and that his views were contrary to the government's in certain regards. This was in the spring of 2019. The PCO has sent us a document that includes the initial job posting for the chairperson position. That was posted in March of 2018, a year before the final appointment. That appointment took a long time to fill.

When was Mr. Balsillie's term coming to an end?

[Navdeep Bains]

I don't recall a specific timeline of when the appointment was coming to an end. I think it's important to note that if you are a current chair, or you had a current role or position, you had to apply. You had to apply to the position.

I had a very good working relationship with Mr. Balsillie. I held him, as did my team, in high regard.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Why was the government of the view that a new chairperson was needed? Why wasn't he kept on for another mandate?

[Navdeep Bains]

Again, these positions come up and you have to apply for them.

I think the key take-away here is that under the new appointment process, even if you are to renew someone, they have to apply. Regardless of whether or not a person is well respected, they must apply for the position.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Can you speak about the difficulty of finding a new chairperson?

[Navdeep Bains]

Look, it's an important skill set to have. It's someone who understands government and the business sector and who has that public-private background. I think Canada is full of talented people.

The big take-away regarding our institutions and system is this: How do we really open it up to Canadians? How do we make sure Canadians are aware of the opportunities? How do we make sure Canadians understand they can serve and have an impact? I think the take-away here is about getting the message out there.

As I've stated on a number of occasions in answers I've given to this committee, it was not uncommon for me, my staff or others to go out there and say, “Look, apply. These are important roles. We want the best and brightest.” I have complete confidence in the new appointment process that vets these individuals.

When names were given to me, two things were apparent. One is that we really opened it up. It is open. It is transparent and merit-based. People who are the most qualified and best positioned have these opportunities. I think that's the key take-away. That's what the new appointment process tries to accomplish. In this particular instance, as stated by the PCO official, a lot of people applied. It was great to see that. Ultimately, a number of recommendations were made to me.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I believe it was 100 people. That's a lot.

[Navdeep Bains]

I believe it was over 100. That is correct, Mr. Chair.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

You said it's not uncommon to speak to prospective applicants and encourage them. How did you encourage them?

[Navdeep Bains]

Mr. Chair, that's a great question.

If I was at events, meeting people.... You know, public officials are constantly out there speaking to a lot of people in different capacities. I would say, “Look, as part of the new government, it's important that we attract the best and brightest from across the country. There are a number of opportunities. Go to the website. Look at the opportunities.” These are the kinds of casual conversations you have with people when you meet them or talk to them. That's why I don't recall every specific conversation.

As I said, this was an appointment that took place over five years ago. I made over 100 Governor in Council appointments. I received hundreds of recommendations, probably. If you take, on average, four per appointment, that's over 400 names. I don't recall all of the names. I don't recall all of the conversations.

However, I think people can have confidence in the fact that these individuals had to apply. They had to put their name forward. There was a process to vet them. This process engaged our public sector, and these individuals had to meet certain criteria. I think that's the important take-away, if I may say so, Mr. Chair.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Okay.

Just to be clear, was there any indication during the appointment process that the process you saw time and again was not followed?