Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 30th, 2024

[Navdeep Bains]

No.

My understanding is that with this or other appointments, the whole objective of the new appointment process is to have individuals apply. In some instances, if they move ahead in the application process, they are interviewed. I think it is a rigorous, transparent and open process, one that is open to all Canadians. On balance, at times, it might take a bit of additional due diligence and time.

I had confidence in the new process and that the vetting was done in a professional way.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. That is the time.

We are beginning our fourth and final round. Again, it will be for six minutes.

Mr. Cooper, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Former Liberal minister Bains, your department had contribution agreements with SDTC. It was funding SDTC. Is that correct?

[Navdeep Bains]

My understanding is that we allocated funds to Sustainable Development Technology Canada.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Yes, and it was through contribution agreements.

Why did your department, under your watch, fail to conduct even a single audit to determine SDTC's compliance with the contribution agreements with your department? Why did that not happen?

[Navdeep Bains]

The monies were allocated to this arm's-length organization that made the determinations. There are regular routine checks and balances that exist in the system. My understanding is that those processes were followed.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Checks and balances didn't work, because $59 million of taxpayer money went out the door in contravention of the contribution agreements with your department.

Were you unaware that millions of dollars of tax dollars were going out the door improperly? Is that what you're saying? Were you oblivious of that fact as minister?

[Navdeep Bains]

To answer that question, Mr. Chair, I've been very clear that the members on the board are independent. They make these decisions independently—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Former Liberal minister Bains, do you accept that your department had a responsibility to see that the fund used public funds appropriately?

[Navdeep Bains]

Mr. Chair, as I was saying before I was interrupted, this is an independent board that makes independent decisions—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I would invite you to read paragraph 6.68 of the Auditor General's report, which says precisely that. We're talking about a billion tax dollars here that your department sent to SDTC. Your department had a duty to see that those funds were being used appropriately.

Did you ask any questions of anyone about what was going on with a billion taxpayer dollars that your department was responsible for overseeing?

[Navdeep Bains]

Mr. Chair, as I stated before, this independent board had clear rules on how to make decisions, on how to allocate funds, on how to engage management and how to oversee the day-to-day operations. That is why it's an arm's-length organization—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

How often did you make inquiries about what was going on at SDTC? How often did you speak to your deputy minister? How often did you speak to ADM Noseworthy, who was sitting in on every one of these board meetings in which there were conflicts in which tens of millions of dollars improperly went out the door?

[Navdeep Bains]

Mr. Chair, again, the issues with respect to the conduct of the board members were not brought to my attention.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Before you went to cabinet and requested that $750 million be sent over to SDTC, did you ask for any kind of report or any sort of overview of what was going on at SDTC, such as an audit?

[Navdeep Bains]

As the member knows, when monies are allocated, they're part of the budget that is debated in the House of Commons. It was all done in a very open, transparent way about where the funds would go—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Former Liberal minister Bains, do you accept the principle of ministerial responsibility?

[Navdeep Bains]

I think it's important to advance the interests of Canadians to make sure that we continue to support, in this particular instance, the clean-tech sector.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Former Liberal minister Bains, it's clear that you were AWOL as minister. You didn't care, and as a result, $400 million of taxpayer money improperly went out the door at SDTC.

Will you at least accept responsibility that you didn't do proper due diligence and that you didn't ask the right questions, or is it that you just didn't care and turned a blind eye?

[Navdeep Bains]

Mr. Chair, respectfully to the member, I care very much about the clean-tech sector. I've stated why it's important and why we had sustainable—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Bains, what you don't care about is the taxpayer.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Wait one second. I'll come back to you, Mr. Cooper.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I just want to flag that the bells are ringing. What's going on?

[An hon. member]

It's a quorum call.