Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 25th, 2022

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Yes, if you can provide a written submission specific to some of the outreach that you've done and how that wound up getting submitted after your outreach activities, I think that would be helpful. If the people we are reaching out to don't have high-speed Internet access, or what have you, that may be worth considering.

I'll follow up. Do you see any role for tax code simplification or tax form simplification that could make it easier for the forms to get filled out and submitted so that we can get them in the door in the first place, so to speak?

[Bob Hamilton]

Certainly, Mr. Chair, part of our effort is simplifying the process as much as we can, so the person filling it out faces a simple task. We have ways of doing that. Community volunteering is one example—people can go out and actually help you file it. We have “File my Return”, where, if you're in a relatively simple tax situation, you can do it by phone. We have a simplified return for indigenous communities—that would be both rural and urban, going back to the previous question. We are doing the best we can. The system works better when it's as simple as possible to navigate.

I think that's where another Auditor General recommendation rings true. How can we, together with ESDC, work to streamline the process for people overall, and for all governments? How can we work with provinces? We have things called “super clinics”, because the federal government isn't the only one providing benefits in this space. How can we consolidate our efforts, if we want to make it simpler for people?

The premise of your question.... Is the tax system a simple thing? No. We're doing everything we can to try to make it simple for the people trying to use it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have 20 seconds, including an answer.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Could you quickly provide some advice for politicians to make the tax code simpler?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay, that's not going to be a short answer.

[Bob Hamilton]

I can't in this forum.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

That's fair enough.

Mr. Chair, I see I'm just about out of time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You can use your time next time to suggest a tax form. You'll have a whole five minutes.

We'll turn now to Ms. Bradford.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses today.

The overwhelming and recurring theme here is “we don't know what we don't know”. That's the whole problem. We have these invisible people we could potentially help, but they're under the radar.

I know that, when they collapsed the long-form census—I was working in a municipality at the time this happened—it was a struggle for municipalities to help identify some of the service needs, because we just didn't have the data.

Ms. MacDonald, could you tell me whether it was impactful on your department when we dropped the collection of more extensive data through the long-form census? Did that limit the kind of information you had access to?

[Lori MacDonald]

We have an umbrella MOU agreement in place with Stats Canada, and we share and gather information back and forth with them, so I can't specifically say whether that, in and of itself, had a very specific impact on us.

What I can say is that, as reflected in the AG's report, it's really important that we share data with Stats Canada and they share data with us, so we can get at these hard-to-find populations.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Following up on that, I suppose this is a question, then, for the Canada Revenue Agency. I know that, in their opening statement, they indicated there is a lot of information that is personal and identifiable, so they can't share that, of course.

In response to recommendation 1.45 on understanding “the effectiveness of outreach approaches”, the agency responded that it “does not currently collect personal data of those individuals who participate in outreach events.”

Is it possible for the Canada Revenue Agency to collect certain demographic data confidentially, which would enable it to better assess the effectiveness of its awareness strategy without violating the Privacy Act? Is that possible?

[Bob Hamilton]

Mr. Chair, in response to that question.... This is one of the trade-offs we always face as we try to collect information to help us guide future actions. We face privacy laws, as does every other organization. We also have, within the Income Tax Act, section 241, which declares the confidentiality of information we receive. We are not able, at the moment—we'll see how time evolves—to collect information on, for example, the people who get helped by the CVITP. We can track the effort—how many volunteers there are and how many people came in—but we can't collect that information and use it.

That's part of what we're looking at, together with StatsCan and ESDC: Are there things we can do to better enable us to have that helpful information without breaching privacy or confidentiality under the Income Tax Act? It's an area of continuing work.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you very much.

One program that seems to be greatly underutilized is the Canada learning bond, and it's such a shame. In 2020, only 42% of children under age 21 who were already eligible actually used it. There was an RESP opened in their name, and the federal government deposited money into it, but it wasn't being utilized. This is free money from the government.

Do you have any idea what explains the low take-up rate for the Canada learning bond, Ms. MacDonald?

[Lori MacDonald]

I'll ask my colleague Atiq Rahman to respond to this question.

[Atiq Rahman, Assistant Deputy Minister, Learning Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Thank you, Deputy.

The explanation is.... The member already mentioned that families need to open a registered education savings plan in order to receive the Canada learning bond. The program design is part of a savings incentive scheme. Families need to go to a financial institution and open an account, open an RESP, and then apply for the Canada learning bond. That administrative complexity adds to the reasons for the low uptake.

We have been trying our best, and you are right that the uptake rate has slightly increased over time. However, at this point, given everything that we have done, I think there is a ceiling beyond which we may not be able to reach, given the administrative complexity in applying for the benefit.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I was wondering if it couldn't be done more automatically, like we're doing with the OAS. At age 65, the OAS happens automatically.

Could these accounts not be opened when children are born? The government will pay $500 for the first year and $100 in subsequent years. Even if the parents in some of these hard-to-reach areas were financially unable to contribute anything further, at least they'd have that. If there was an automatic process, like when you apply for a birth certificate or whatever, boom, there's your account. It might be something you could—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Give a very brief answer, if you have one.

[Atiq Rahman]

The legislation currently does not allow that, but it is one of the things that the department continues to look into.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to expand on what we were talking about a few minutes ago, data collection, which the Canada Revenue Agency, Employment and Social Development Canada and Statistics Canada are doing together.

I don't know who could answer my question. It's a simple one: How does Canada's Privacy Act compare to the legislation in other countries that conduct a census similar to Canada's?

[Bob Hamilton]

That's not a very simple question. I would ask Mr. Guénette to answer it.

[Maxime Guénette, Assistant Commissioner, Service, Innovation and Integration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné. It is quite extensive.

The European legislation is actually a little stricter than Canada's. However, Canada is trying to align itself as much is possible with the new European regulations, which place a lot of emphasis on limiting the use of data to the purposes for which it is collected.

That's the challenge we're facing right now. Some departments have data, but it was collected for a specific purpose and it can't be used by another agency for a different reason.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you.

Would a more flexible legislative framework not help improve outcomes, particularly when it comes to accessibility for vulnerable individuals?

[Maxime Guénette]

Certainly, a more flexible legislative framework might allow for wider usage of personal information by various organizations for different purposes, but that would perhaps run counter to the privacy principles built into Canada's legislative framework.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I do get that you have to strike a balance between protecting people's privacy and putting an end to poverty.