Evidence of meeting #70 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rosenberg.
A video is available from Parliament.
Noon
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
That's always been the case. You have 10 floors in Blackburn. Moreover, you have all sorts of other buildings.
Clearly, the public service is not unaware of the fact that, when meetings take place in the Prime Minister's Office, it sends a message. If you want to send a message that this foundation is closely connected to the Prime Minister and therefore donations to this foundation are appreciated by the Prime Minister, a great way to send that message is to have it in the relatively small building that is called “the Prime Minister's Office”.
Noon
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you, Mr. Genuis.
There was no question mark there.
Mr. Rosenberg, if you could keep it brief, I will give you....
Noon
As an Individual
I fundamentally disagree with that view. This is used by the PCO all the time. I don't think it sends any message, and we were not the only ones to have the opportunity to go there.
Noon
Conservative
Noon
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you, Chair. I can see what the objective is.
This study, by the way, is taking place to look at the Trudeau Foundation precisely because it was created with $125 million from the government at the time. I understand that not all of the parties were in agreement with it, but to see what is happening at this time—basically, a smear job on the Trudeau Foundation—I think is very shameful.
I would like to address those meetings at the PCO.
First of all, what is the difference between the PMO and the PCO, please, very briefly, Mr. Rosenberg?
Noon
As an Individual
It's the public service. It is the Prime Minister's department, but it is filled with public servants who generally have worked elsewhere to have a broader experience. They spend some time at the PCO, and then typically it is a path to more senior jobs in the public service.
I was the deputy secretary of operations in the PCO before I became the deputy minister of justice, for example. Before that, I was the assistant secretary of economic and regional development policy, starting under the Conservatives at the end of the Mulroney and Kim Campbell regimes.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Now, you mentioned the Conservatives. Are there any criteria to be a member of one party or the other to be hired into the PCO?
12:05 p.m.
As an Individual
No. In fact, one of the things, I would say, that's really interesting is that a lot of the people who became deputy ministers under the Liberals had been political staff under the Conservatives, and they're some of the best deputy ministers. I was always a big believer in hiring political staff. Under both different governments, I hired political staff from the other party.
12:05 p.m.
As an Individual
It was because I found that political staff actually had their feet firmly planted on the ground in terms of what's practical, in a way that sometimes public servants didn't.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
That's a very interesting observation.
Can I ask about that meeting in 2016? What was the context in which the Trudeau Foundation was discussed?
12:05 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, the Trudeau Foundation wasn't discussed. What was discussed was...it was really the beginning of a project that was being done jointly with the Centre for International Governance Innovation at Waterloo—CIGI—on whether there are economic benefits to innovation.
We wanted to get a bit of sharing with the government and also to have the possibility for these researchers to speak to some policy folks in the government about their information. There was a study that was completed about a year later that really looked on a kind of industry-by-industry basis, because there were real distinctions from one industry to the other. That study is available online. I could provide it, but equally, you could find it.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you, Mr. Rosenberg.
I would like to ask Mr. Flack: I believe you were present at the time, at that meeting. Indeed, can you speak to that meeting concerning the Trudeau Foundation, if there were any other meetings about the Trudeau Foundation and what was discussed?
12:05 p.m.
Graham Flack Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, As an Individual
I would have been invited to the meeting as the deputy minister of Canadian heritage, which has, among other things, a mandate for pluralism. What I remember about the meeting is that it was a meeting with some academics on a project on pluralism.
I probably would have gone back to the department and asked the department if we had eyes on this, because there are many pluralism projects. The department works with the Race Relations Foundation and the Global Centre for Pluralism.
That's my recollection of the meeting.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Was there any discussion whatsoever about dealings with China, favouring China, Chinese academic research or anything of that nature of any kind?
12:05 p.m.
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, As an Individual
I have no recollection of anything like that. What I recall is an academic project on pluralism, not unlike the ones we did with the Global Centre for Pluralism in Canada. The meeting was seven years ago. I think I would have remembered if there were something about China, but I don't have any recollection of anything like that. It was more a kind of standard academic conference that we were being made aware of and that the department had an interest in.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Very good, and I'd like to direct a question to Mr. Knubley, then, concerning Industry Canada.
What is the mandate of Industry Canada vis-à-vis the Trudeau Foundation?
12:05 p.m.
As an Individual
As I mentioned in my introductory remarks, the Trudeau Foundation is part of a portfolio of agencies in the department. Other agencies would include the Business Development Bank of Canada, the National Research Council, Space Agency Canada and the granting councils. It's a broad range of different types of organizations.
In the case of the Trudeau Foundation—
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
I'm afraid you are over the time. That finishes our second round.
Going back to Mr. Genuis, you have the floor for five minutes, please.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you, Chair.
What's striking to me is that someone who has had such senior roles in the public service would think the public and this committee are such utter fools as to believe there was an interesting discussion about pluralism and economic growth. It was sort of an academic, open-ended, thought-provoking discussion, and it just happened to involve six deputy ministers and take place in the Prime Minister's Office.
There are a lot of think tanks in this country that are doing great work, and probably more sophisticated work on these issues than the Trudeau Foundation that aren't able to get six deputy ministers together in the Prime Minister's Office. The fact that nobody thought it was sending a message about anything to anyone is so bizarre that I'm surprised we are hearing that as testimony.
I want to move back to the very serious issue of sexual assault and harassment allegations against people connected with the foundation. My colleague, Mr. Brock, was raising these issues before a Liberal MP tried to shut him down on a point of order, and it is striking that Liberals don't want to hear these questions. They talk a lot about feminism and holding people accountable, but they didn't even want to let Mr. Brock finish his line of questioning on this, so I want to pick this up.
Mr. Rosenberg, in the case involving Cherry Smiley, did you testify in February in support of the Trudeau Foundation's desire to move that case to Montreal?
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
I testified in February, but not in support. I was asked to testify by their lawyers, but my testimony was—
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
I was asked by the foundation's lawyers, but my testimony, if I recall it, was simply around factual issues as to where, for example, I would have signed the scholarship agreement for Ms. Smiley, where Ms. Smiley went to school, and where the events took place, which was Newfoundland. I just gave factual testimony. I wasn't advocating for anybody.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Naturally, as a witness, your role wasn't to advocate, but is it reasonable to presume that, if the foundation's lawyers asked you to testify, they thought the testimony you provided would be useful to their desire to move the location of the case to Quebec?