Evidence of meeting #70 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rosenberg.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON
Thank you.
In terms of the $125 million endowment, is that the primary source of the foundation's revenue? Are there other sources of revenue?
11:25 a.m.
As an Individual
The primary source is indeed the endowment. Of course, the condition under which it receives the endowment is that the foundation can't spend the capital. It has to live off the interest.
Again, Mr. Johnson mentioned last week that the capital has now increased to somewhere around $147,000, I believe. In addition, there are some donations, but not many. The biggest donation was one made by the McCall MacBain Foundation back in about 2016.
11:25 a.m.
As an Individual
I think overall it was about $3 million, but I'm not sure.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON
My last question, sir, is in regard to when the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation was created. Did all political parties support the creation of this foundation?
11:25 a.m.
As an Individual
I believe that all parties did, other than the Bloc Québécois.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, go ahead. You have six minutes.
11:25 a.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good morning to the witnesses.
Mr. Rosenberg, do you recall signing tax receipts for donations that were received in several payments from the company Millennium Golden Eagle International?
11:25 a.m.
As an Individual
I acknowledge signing them, but I don't recall the details.
I'm going to switch to English to explain, if you don't mind.
There are a lot of questions about why no red flags were raised when I signed the receipt with a Chinese address. From the documents that were released under access to information, it would appear that no concerns were raised by the employees preparing the receipts, and no concerns were raised by me either, so how could that be?
First, the foundation has controls in place to deal with this very administrative matter of signing receipts, and I rely on them, but second, the way the questions have been asked, it's as though there is an expectation that I would have blocked off a significant amount of time to examine the receipts from this donation. While I can't reproduce the exact circumstances, it was more likely someone saying to me, “Here's a pile of the correspondence for your signature,” and I would have quickly gone through it, focusing my attention more on the content of letters that we were sending out, rather than on a receipt.
11:25 a.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Mr. Rosenberg, you're a lawyer. You know that you can't sign a document without reading it first. That's law 101.
11:25 a.m.
As an Individual
I didn't say that I didn't read the documents. I said that, in an organization, you have to prioritize.
I acknowledge that other things were going on at the time. Did I take the time to examine every document in detail? Probably not.
11:25 a.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
My next question is about just that.
According to the testimony given by Ms. Fournier, staff at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation were clearly instructed as to the names that should appear on the receipts. Did you—
11:25 a.m.
As an Individual
I saw that in the documentation, and this is how I interpret it.
We already know that Mr. Zhang has ties to the China Cultural Industry Association. Mr. Zhang's employees were employees of the association. I think it was about having someone who could communicate with us in English.
Two things happened. First, foundation staff corresponded with that individual in China to translate the thank you letter I sent to the donor. Second—
11:25 a.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
You sent it in Mandarin, but the person spoke English.
In the course of your career, have you often had to send letters in Mandarin?
11:25 a.m.
As an Individual
Yes, I signed it because I had been assured that the content was a faithful translation of what we had written in English. It was about sending the donor a document they would be able to understand. They didn't speak English, so there was correspondence regarding the translation and the address.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Mr. Rosenberg, it's a Canadian company, not a shell company, as you pointed out in your opening statement. Why, then, send the company a letter in Mandarin? Usually, you would send a Canadian company a letter in the language spoken at the company.
11:30 a.m.
As an Individual
No. I think the receipt was sent to the company. The letter was sent to Zhang Bin and Niu Gensheng.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
I agree with you regarding the tax receipts.
You're saying, though, that the donor is someone who speaks only Mandarin. The donation was made by Millennium Golden Eagle International. Forgive me, but it's not at all clear.
If the donation came from the Canadian company Millennium Golden Eagle International, why did you send a letter thanking a third party who speaks only Mandarin?
11:30 a.m.
As an Individual
I think the issue may have come up in the committee that heard from Alexandre Trudeau.
My understanding is that it's not unusual for someone to ask a company they run to issue a payment. I think that's what happened.
I have to say, I'm getting a lot of questions about the donors' addresses and identities, but I can't tell you exactly what happened. Any concerns of that nature are precisely the kind of thing that an independent review or an investigation by the Canada Revenue Agency, or CRA, should look into. To do that, it's necessary—
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Do you agree that an independent public inquiry should be held?
11:30 a.m.
As an Individual
I want to make a distinction.
On one hand, there's the whole issue of a public inquiry into foreign interference.
On the other, I think Blake Desjarlais asked Mr. Johnson the other day whether the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation should be included in that.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
I asked you a very specific question. Do you agree? You just said that an independent public inquiry should be held.
You're a lawyer, and you spent 34 years in the public service, so you know that the appearance of a conflict of interest matters more than the actual conflict of interest. If there is the appearance that the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation is being used for foreign interference, those doubts have to be dispelled to ensure that Canada's democracy functions smoothly.
Do you agree?