Evidence of meeting #70 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rosenberg.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Very good.
The donation was made by two donors in Beijing, but a different name appeared on the tax receipt. You didn't know what your employees were doing, but had you known at the time, would it have been acceptable to you?
11:50 a.m.
As an Individual
To be honest, I didn't have a chance to think about it at the time. The important thing to me was that the receipt was issued to the legal entity that made the donation. That is the only party—
11:50 a.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
You think it's acceptable to put a different name on the tax receipt even though the CRA considers it wrong?
11:55 a.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
It's the law, and you know it. You can't take a donation from one person and issue the tax receipt to another.
You were the president and CEO, so would you have rebuked your employees for doing that?
11:55 a.m.
As an Individual
My understanding is that the receipt was given to the person who made the donation, so the Canadian subsidiary of Millennium Golden Eagle International.
11:55 a.m.
Bloc
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
You're out of time, Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné. Thank you.
Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes. Go ahead, please.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I also want to continue on something, Mr. Rosenberg, you mentioned previously regarding the relationship the foundation had, during your time there as CEO, and the nature of the government's intentions with China. You mentioned two examples that I think are fair to mention. One was former prime minister Harper's intention to invite pandas as a symbol of goodwill and a growing relationship. You also mentioned, of course, under that same regime of the Conservatives, the purchasing of Canadian oil assets. Those are two examples, especially under the Conservative government, that would of course demonstrate the will of both the Conservatives and the operating government now and their intention to further develop a relationship with China.
You mentioned of course that it was all turned on its head when the two Michaels became a situation. That was of course devastating to Canadians and may in fact have been devastating to many folks within the civil service. From your experience, especially when you were there as president and CEO, you mentioned it was part of the culture, let's say, of the government and that the Trudeau Foundation was participating in that culture of trying to build a relationship with China. You also mentioned in your first round of questioning that when the Trudeau Foundation accepted the donation, it could have hosted a conference on something like Tiananmen Square, for example. That's something you said in the testimony here.
Just in light of that, wouldn't it have been enough for the Chinese, at least for that project, to see that conference take place and then refuse to donate to the Trudeau Foundation in the future? Wouldn't that constitute a kind of jeopardization of the foundation's goals, particularly within the culture at that time?
11:55 a.m.
As an Individual
That's a very hypothetical question, and I don't know, but I can tell you this. I would assume that the title of a conference would probably have been more neutral. We were doing this with the Université de Montréal law school. They were very interested in the rule of law. Let's assume we had a conference on the rule of law, a neutral type of—
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
You also said Uyghurs though, Mr. Rosenberg. I'm just confused. Your statement now seems to be a bit different in nature from what you were trying to make a statement about earlier.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
You may explain, but I want you to explain the difference between your two points here.
11:55 a.m.
As an Individual
I will explain that you can have a conference with a benign title, but there's no way.... I know the people in the Trudeau Foundation, and if they were dealing with the rule of law, human rights would have come up. The Uyghurs would have come up. All sorts of stuff would have come up, and it would have resulted in the same thing. If somebody in China thought it was a good idea to build the Chinese brand in Canada to pay for these conferences, I think they were mistaken. I think this would have come out in a very different way.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much. That is the time.
We're turning now to Mr. Genuis.
You have the floor for five minutes.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thanks, Mr. Chair.
I think it's important to start by underlining why we're here. It's because so much of the public is concerned. We are deeply concerned in the official opposition that the Trudeau Foundation has a governance problem that led to it being targeted as a means of influencing the Trudeau government.
It's a matter of public record that the Minister of Industry, as well as the Trudeau family, had the ability to appoint members to the foundation, that this foundation is defined as a public institution in various statutes, and that there was a spike in foreign donations after the Trudeau government took office. It stretches credibility to think it was an accident unrelated to the fact that the foundation shares a name with the person who is Prime Minister, or that the Prime Minister continues to be listed as a member in the foundation's annual report, though identified as an inactive one.
I particularly want to drill down on the issue of the meeting in the Prime Minister's Office.
Mr. Rosenberg, you told us there's nothing unusual about this meeting. Meetings happen in the Prime Minister's Office all the time. It's no big deal.
I'll let you respond, but “the Prime Minister's Office” is actually the name of the building. It's called “the Prime Minister's Office” and a meeting took place there with the Trudeau Foundation. You said the PCO also has offices and that it's a central downtown location. I know the building fairly well. The Prime Minister's Office is a four-storey building. It includes the Prime Minister's private office, as well as other offices. The political arm of the PMO uses the vast majority of that building. There are some offices for PCO, but the building adjoins the 10-storey Blackburn building, which is, from what I understand, all PCO offices.
Even if the meeting had to happen somewhere between Sparks Street and Wellington, you have 10 floors with, presumably, boardrooms on all of them in the Blackburn building, and you have one floor used by PCO in the Prime Minister's Office. To say, “Well, all the boardrooms were taken in the Blackburn building; there was no space anywhere else in downtown Ottawa, and the only place available was the PMO,” is just malarkey, isn't it? You must have known this meeting sent a message, and you must have intended it to send a message, sir.
Tell me why none of the boardrooms in the Blackburn building or anywhere in downtown Ottawa were available, and why you felt this was the most convenient place to meet.
Noon
As an Individual
There are a few things I want to say in response to your question.
First of all, I believe that, while this building is now called...I'm not sure what, exactly. Whether it's “the Prime Minister's Office” or—
Noon
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
“The Prime Minister's Office” is what it's called.
Noon
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
It was previously called “Langevin Block”, named after Mr. Langevin—
Noon
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
It was always “the Prime Minister's Office”.
Noon
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Mr. Genuis, you're kind of.... Why don't we hear from Mr. Rosenberg?
Noon
As an Individual
I think, at that time.... It was before.... There was an issue around the name of the building. I think it had something to do with the legacy of Hector Langevin, perhaps in relation to residential schools. I'm not sure. A decision was made to change the name of the building. I think it may have still been “Langevin Block” when I was there. That's one.
Two, I worked in PCO. They used two floors. The third floor is where you have the office of the clerk, the deputy secretary, plans and the deputy secretary, operations. The national security adviser is somewhere else. That whole floor is filled with PCO folks. The fourth floor has two very big boardrooms and a number of smaller boardrooms that are constantly in use by members of the public service.
Third, the genesis of it is this: I spoke to a deputy secretary—I believe it was of plans. I think he would have said, “I can't organize a meeting in the PCO.” I would have said, “This is something you guys might want to know about,” and he would have said, “Okay, I'll organize the meeting.” Where do the deputy secretaries of plans organize meetings? They do it in PCO, and they tend to do it in boardrooms on the fourth floor of the Langevin Block.
Noon
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I'm going to jump in, as I have 30 seconds left.
Those boardrooms are used extensively by the Prime Minister's own staff, and they have priority for booking those rooms.