Evidence of meeting #70 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rosenberg.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Mr. Kram, you have the floor for five minutes.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. McCauley.
You have the floor for five minutes, Mr. McCauley. Pardon me.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thanks, witnesses, for being with us today.
I want to chat quickly, Mr. Rosenberg, to follow up on Mr. Desjarlais's comments about the partisanship. Besides Chuck Strahl, how many known Conservatives are you aware of who worked for the foundation or were members?
12:25 p.m.
As an Individual
Michael Fortier was a mentor. The original board had Bill Davis on it. I'd have to go back to look. There were also NDP members on it.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
It's pretty minimal, comparatively. I think what I'm saying is that I don't think anyone considers.... Well, there's no one from the Bloc, but I don't think anyone will look at the foundation and say that it's purely a non-partisan one.
I want to get back to the original donation. When the $140,000—two payments of $70,000—came through, the foundation was aware that some of it was coming directly from mainland China, was it not?
12:25 p.m.
As an Individual
No, the foundation was aware that the cheque, or whatever it was, was deposited into the Bank of Montreal by a Canadian corporation, Millennium Golden Eagle International (Canada) Inc.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
No one was aware there was any link to mainland China or the PRC.
12:25 p.m.
As an Individual
If anyone.... I think the people who were looking at the—
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I guess my next question is this: When was the foundation aware?
12:25 p.m.
As an Individual
The whole issue of this link to the PRC.... We knew we were dealing with Chinese individuals, but we also knew that the...and this is where all the confusion comes in. My understanding is that people sometimes use corporations to make donations for them. People control corporations, and they'll decide, for whatever reason, to use the corporation.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I recognize that. Was there no suspicion, no hesitation or feeling that this really doesn't...?
12:25 p.m.
As an Individual
You know, we weren't suspicious. I guess that was partly because we didn't think there was anything to this that was asking us to do anything untoward. As I said, we basically had free run with what we were going to do with this money.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
No one was stepping forward before then, though, saying, “Here's $140,000. Send the receipt off to China.” It didn't happen until after....
12:25 p.m.
As an Individual
It didn't really get picked up. If you look at the documents that are there, you will see that there's correspondence between two employees in the foundation without ever ccing me or even the executive director.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
At any time in your four years, did you have a feeling that maybe this didn't smell right?
12:25 p.m.
As an Individual
I didn't, because of the nature of how we were introduced to these folks, their antecedence in having donated to the University of Toronto, the fact that our ambassador knew them, and the fact that these conferences.... The only right they had was that the conferences would bear their names. The content of the conferences was not up to them.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Looking back, do you think you were naive or perhaps wilfully blind to this?
12:25 p.m.
As an Individual
You know, I don't think so.
I know there are different.... People have said that there are perceptions out there. I appreciate that, and I feel bad about it because I think the foundation has been so tarred by this. However, in the grander scheme of things, with all the things we were doing, this was not a huge deal within the foundation. We were in the process of putting on these major conferences. Most of our energy was going into that and not into thinking through this.
There was a ceremony, and it was unusual to have a ceremony, but it was the Université de Montréal that wanted to have the ceremony, and we decided it would be appropriate that Alexandre Trudeau be there. It was just a slightly different way of doing things.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
In your tenure, were there any CRA audits done—as a charity?
12:30 p.m.
As an Individual
I believe so, and I think the CRA actually answered that when it was here.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
No, it didn't. It was quite clear about not answering anything.
Commissioner Hamilton, if you're watching right now, that's directed at you.
You mentioned about the quote.... You said you wouldn't jeopardize the charitable status. Looking back, obviously there's the donation. However, there are also the CNCA requirements, which apparently were not done for years, as well as the disbursement obligations, which apparently were not done. Are these, perhaps, due to a disagreement in how the accounting should have been done?
12:30 p.m.
As an Individual
As far as I know, the disbursement obligations.... Is it the percentage you're talking about there? When I was there, I believe we complied.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
12:30 p.m.
As an Individual
I'm pretty sure, but I can't say “definitely”, because I don't have the documents.