Evidence of meeting #70 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rosenberg.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes, I assume that's why they wanted me to. I'm not sure they would have found my testimony necessarily all that helpful.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
All right. Do you think the way Ms. Smiley has been treated by the foundation has been appropriate?
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
I can't say. I don't know, because I wasn't there. Most of this, as I understand it—the statement of claim—deals with issues post the time that I left the foundation.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay, but they repeatedly sought a change of venue. Just on the face of that.... I can't speak to the particular facts of her claim, but the repeated efforts to move the venue to a place where these events didn't occur and that was least convenient for her.... Would you suggest that is not a great way of affirming the importance of survivors' coming forward and telling their stories?
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
Mr. Genuis, I am not going to opine on people's strategy in handling litigation.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
My next question is about a structural issue for the foundation around legal issues like this. Who pays for the litigation that occurs? Where does the money come from that the foundation uses, specifically for that litigation?
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
I guess it's from administrative budgets of the foundation.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Is that donor money? Is that money interest on the endowment?
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
I don't think it's donor money, but I'm not sure, frankly. You could ask the foundation what the accounting is on that.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I want to switch quickly to Mr. Knubley in the time I have.
The Minister of Industry is responsible for appointing directors to the Trudeau Foundation. Could you share a bit about the process that you follow when you're deputy minister at Industry regarding appointments to the Trudeau Foundation?
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
I have several comments here.
First, I believe there were changes, and I was briefed on this in 2013 regarding the role of the minister in terms of appointments. In 2013, under the Harper government, the foundation actually changed the appointment process in recognition of the fact that ministers would not appoint directors. The change, as I understood it, although perhaps—
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I'm sorry, but I am almost out of time.
I may have misspoken. It's appointing “members” to the foundation. The minister, according to the latest annual report, retains the power to appoint members to the foundation.
Are you aware of that, and can you tell us about the process by which the minister makes these decisions?
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
That is the case, that it is members.
I never participated in any appointment. As I understood it—I believe I am correct on this, although I am working again from my memory—no appointments were ever made by ministers Paradis, Moore or Bains.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Mr. Fragiskatos, you have the floor for five minutes.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
12:15 p.m.
As an Individual
Could I take just 30 seconds of your time to answer an issue that Mr. Genuis raised?
12:15 p.m.
As an Individual
He said there were six DMs who went to this meeting. They're all here. I think the only DM who went to this meeting—it was not six, first of all—was Mr. Flack. I don't believe Mr. Jean was there. I don't believe Ms. Biguzs was there, and I don't believe that Mr. Knubley was there.
As far as the clout of the foundation to get deputy ministers to come to meetings, I'll tell you, if I had been a deputy minister and got that invitation, I probably wouldn't have gone either. Deputies are busy people. They tend to send people who are lower down in the organization.
I'm sorry, but I just wanted to make that point.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Thank you for that clarification, Mr. Rosenberg.
We're well over an hour into this meeting. There have been a number of exchanges, and much has been said. I want to give you the chance to leave us with two or three key points that you want us to take away as members of this committee, which from your perspective are crucial to this entire issue.
Let's go back to basics, if I can put it that way.
12:15 p.m.
As an Individual
If we're talking about the entire issue, are we talking about the donation? I have a few things to say about that.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
I mean with regard to the key points you want to leave us with. I leave that in your hands.
12:15 p.m.
As an Individual
There are a couple of things that I would reiterate.
The donation bought no influence. We never thought that a $200,000 donation would influence any government, as I said.
As for using the foundation to spread a pro-China message, that donation likely would have resulted in conferences that were not what the Chinese wanted to hear, as I already said. I think that's a key message. It goes to our motivation in terms of having thought this was not something we needed to be concerned about. We didn't see how this was actually going to influence us. Frankly, the idea that $200,000 is going to influence any government, I think is absurd, but other people have different views.
Second, in terms of whatever happened with the receipting, it is so much against the interest of the Trudeau Foundation to do anything that would jeopardize its charitable status. Either we did it right...and if we didn't do it right, then the CRA should tell us we didn't do it right. However, as far as we were concerned, this donation was made by a company and the receipt went to the company.
I've already talked about the discrepancy between the annual reports and the receipts.
Our motivation in this, in dealing with the folks we were dealing with, is that they were known quantities. They had donated to the University of Toronto. They had been dealing with the University of Montreal for a long time. It was the U of M that brought us into this, and we didn't think there was.... The Canadian ambassador in China was the one who introduced the University of Montreal to Mr. Zhang.
We thought, from a due diligence point of view, that we had done our due diligence. This was a donation that accorded with our priorities and allowed us and our scholars to learn about probably the biggest geopolitical issue over the past 30 years, which is the rise of China and its implications.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Mr. Rosenberg, the efforts made by Conservative politicians continue in terms of trying to paint the organization as some type of conduit through which China was trying to gain influence over the Canadian government.
I have not seen, and I don't think any member of this committee or any parliamentarian has seen, evidence in that direction at all. However, perception, as you well know, is everything, not just in politics but in terms of how the public perceives and looks at these issues.
We heard from you today, and we heard from Mr. Johnson the other day, about the very good work that the foundation has done in terms of supporting students and research. Do you think the foundation will survive?
12:15 p.m.
As an Individual
I hope it survives.
I think this is a very fraught time for the foundation. I think, in dealing with the resignation of a president and the resignation of several board members, they have some work to do.
It's why, in answering Mr. Desjarlais's question earlier, I really hope we can clarify this. There have been a lot of allegations made; there's a lot of smoke there. I honestly believe that the foundation was operating in good faith and that it wasn't influenced, but I do understand that there are public perceptions out there.
The foundation cannot wait two or three years to have this clarified. It needs a quicker resolution.