Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 5th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Actually, your time is up, but I will allow Mr. Kennedy to briefly respond.

[Simon Kennedy]

I'd just like to clarify that we completely agree that cellular coverage on the roads is very important. The Auditor General mentioned that we needed to address this serious issue, and we agree. So far, the goal of this policy has been to connect people to the Internet, but clearly we need to examine that other issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné asked you for information. Are you prepared to provide it?

[Simon Kennedy]

We can absolutely provide the Committee with a response.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais, I hope you have a good, strong Internet connection, because you have the floor for six minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thankfully I'm in an urban area, which I think in this particular audit highlights what the Auditor General puts in very poignant words. It's one that I will focus on today, which is the digital divide.

It's no secret, Mr. Chair and witnesses, that Canada experiences many divides, particularly now more than ever. It's exacerbated, of course, by the fact that our services, in this case digital services, provide an enhanced barrier. It's made very clear, by the remarks of the Auditor General and in the report, that the digital divide not only persists between rural and urban areas but between non-indigenous and indigenous areas.

I think this is a serious point to make and one that I think differentiates between the kind of Canada that people in urban Canada experience and the kind of Canada that indigenous folks experience. I think it's part of Canada's national crime that we continue to see this great disparity between those services among indigenous and non-indigenous folks.

I hope that the territorial acknowledgement that each and every one of you provided today provides some reflection that, when you do those acknowledgements, it's not simply to acknowledge where you are to check a box but it's to understand that we have a responsibility. That responsibility extends deeply into the national consciousness of how these services and how those promises are to be manifest in the decisions that we have, the decisions we make and the decisions each and every one of you make.

I'll speak to the digital divide hopefully to give some greater understanding of why it persists. We are in 2023, and indigenous folks are still left behind at a greater percentage than 50%. There have been billions of dollars now committed—you've spoken to some of them—and we still continue to see audits like this. I'm very disappointed by this.

I'm from Alberta. We experienced huge and massive wildfires across the north and the Northwest Territories, and many of these communities are rural. Many of these communities are remote, and many of these communities are indigenous. If we don't act, if we simply wait another three years, we're putting lives at stake. We're putting people at stake. We're putting whole communities at stake.

I hope you understand how serious this is to the longevity of these communities, which are suffering from a catastrophe, a climate crisis that can only be abated by the participation and deployment of all of our available resources, which include Internet access. That's one of the most important pieces of information sharing we could possibly have in a country as large as Canada.

I want to focus on the fact that rural and remote Canadians have a disproportionate responsibility for and disproportionate impact from the crises that are facing the country, and it's up to us to make sure we actually address those with good tools, like good Internet.

I'd like to speak now to a fact that was mentioned. The department has committed that there would be 98% connectivity by 2026.

Considering the words of the Auditor General and my concern that Canadians, in particular indigenous Canadians, get left behind, who are the 2%? Who does the minister anticipate the 2% to be? Is it urban areas? Is it in rural areas? I would likely guess that in three years' time when another audit comes out it may in fact be indigenous communities.

I'll give an opportunity now to Mr. Kennedy to respond to that, I think, fair question on behalf of Canadians.

[Simon Kennedy]

Thank you for the chance to comment.

Maybe I could briefly provide a slightly broader response to the question.

We want to underline that we agree completely that there are significant coverage gaps in rural Canada and in indigenous communities. It is absolutely the case that historically, indigenous communities have much less connectivity than other communities in Canada. That is actually an issue that we are working diligently to try to fix. We would never want to minimize the concerns the honourable member raised about this gap.

What I will say though, because I think it is important context, is that the gap is rapidly in the process of being closed. The focus of our efforts, the focus of all the resources and efforts I've talked about here before the committee today, is on closing gaps in rural and indigenous communities. While there remains a significant gap, I think it's contextually worth noting that the gap is closing rapidly.

If you look in 2018, only about 31% of indigenous communities had access to broadband Internet. This year we're projecting that more than 50% will have access to broadband Internet. It still means that half of indigenous communities don't have it, but that's actually a material, significant improvement in five years. We do expect more than 80% of indigenous communities will have it by the 2026 time period, which is almost a tripling of the communities that have access.

There is still a way to go. We would agree with that. It is likely that the 2% we talk about when we get to this 98% coverage in 2026 will consist of the most remote and difficult communities to access. For example, if you're extending fibre optic cable to a community, as my colleague said, you often have to dig a trench. It may have to be hundreds of kilometres through the wilderness. There are going to be very remote communities in the north and so on where that's really not practical.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

How many people is that, Mr. Kennedy? How many people does that 2% you're talking about right now represent?

[Simon Kennedy]

Mr. Chair, I don't have that number totally off the top of my head....

It would be 300,000 households in terms of removing the remaining 2%.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Three hundred thousand is a lot.

[Simon Kennedy]

Yes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I'll just comment that it's probably best not to minimize those voices.

[Simon Kennedy]

Mr. Chair, I'm not minimizing them. I'm just making the point that we will need different kinds of technology. We haven't talked about it today. It wasn't the focus of the report.

We are also working on developing low-earth orbit satellite technology to bring high-speed Internet satellite coverage to the north. We have an agreement with Telesat—which was inked a number of years ago—to buy capacity in their LEO constellation.

We actually—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

The answer to my question is that 300,000 Canadians will be left behind.

[Simon Kennedy]

No, 300,000 Canadians is the remaining number we have to make decisions on regarding how best to connect them, given that it will be difficult to connect them with some of the technologies we're using.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That is the time, Mr. Desjarlais. If you have further questions, you will be up again.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll turn now to our second round.

Mr. Mazier, you have the floor again for five minutes.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Kennedy, there were thousands of Atlantic Canadians without cell service during hurricane Fiona when it landed.

Does the federal government require backup power on cell towers so Canadians can make calls during a power outage?

[Simon Kennedy]

I might turn to my colleague.

One thing I will note is that we have a fairly aggressive agenda to work with the telecom companies and the CRTC in order to improve the reliability of telecom services and particularly to deal with emergencies. We can spend a bit of time on that, but perhaps there's a specific question.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Does the federal government require telecoms to have backup power on cellphone towers today?

[Éric Dagenais]

No.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you.

Mr. Kennedy, the Auditor General stated this in her report: “For certain rural and remote regions, satellite is likely to be the only solution to provide access to connectivity for Canadians.” Starlink satellite Internet is a great example of what can work in rural Canada. I know it's changed rural Manitoba in many positive ways. It proves the point that we need more competition.

In 2019, the current government announced $600 million for a low-earth orbit capacity agreement with Telesat Canada to support rural connectivity through satellites. After spending $600 million on Telesat, how many Canadians have been connected?

[Simon Kennedy]

I should clarify that this is an agreement to purchase capacity on Telesat's constellation when it is launched. Telesat's constellation is not operating yet. It is a commitment to support that Canadian company when its satellite technology launches in order to provide those services to Canadians.

We work with Starlink, though. Through the UBF and in particular the rapid response stream of the universal broadband fund, there are communities that have used Starlink technology. We are working with Telesat, but we are absolutely working, as well, with SpaceX and the Starlink constellation.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

There have been no Canadians connected from that agreement.