Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2023

[Andrew Hayes]

Again, I don't know. I have that information, but I don't know.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Do you know whether there were any changes requested by ISED to RCGT with respect to the final report?

[Andrew Hayes]

I believe there were. However, that in and of itself is not necessarily a red flag. It's something to look at.

I'll use our reports as an example. As we prepare reports and we share them with the entities being audited, at times there are things that require adjustment because they don't come across as factually accurate, even though that's our intention.

We will look at the past reports. We have access to them. I believe that we even have them, but that in and of itself is not dispositive of a problem.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

You're not aware offhand, then, what the requested changes were.

[Andrew Hayes]

I don't know offhand.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Well, that's something for the ministry staff who are tuned in today to note, in anticipation of the minister's appearance at a different committee on Monday.

Do you know on which date PCO raised the issue, which was referred to PCO by you, with ISED?

[Andrew Hayes]

That would be a question for the department.

As I said earlier, I know that PCO moved very quickly. My recollection is not exact in terms of what happened in January and February, but I'm almost positive it happened in February.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay.

Who is in charge of governance at Sustainable Development Technology Canada?

[Andrew Hayes]

I would have to say that accountability rests with the CEO, the president.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Will the CEO be who your office will primarily be working with?

[Andrew Hayes]

We'll work with all management, including the CEO.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

If the CEO and the board chair, or other members of the executive or other members of management, are implicated by your findings, or by the findings of the Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton report that was commissioned by ISED, is that something that's concerning? How do we accept the findings if the people who are being investigated are supposed to be the ones who are unlocking filing cabinets and releasing documents that you request?

[Andrew Hayes]

As far as audit standards go, we have to have confidence in the integrity of management, and we will do our testing for that. We will also make sure that we have access to everything. If we have any concerns about access, we'll raise them.

Our work will be rigorous and extensive. If there are any concerns—if there are controls, processes, etc., that need to be tightened because there were problems—we will raise them.

We typically make recommendations...and organizations have action plans that put them on the spot, quite frankly.

I think at this point in time, the next step is to get the objective, impartial information that we're going to bring forward. I know that the department has already been working with the organization on an action plan. We're going to be looking at the implementation of that action plan.

At the end of the day, if there are other things that need to be done to make sure this organization operates well, then we'll be able to have that conversation.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Hayes.

Ms. Shanahan, you have the floor now for five minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you so much, Chair. I always trust you to manage the time allocated to all Committee members.

Today's meeting is rather special, as we are joined by Mr. Hayes and visited by other members who don't normally attend this Committee. It's always an opportunity for MPs from all parties to better understand how things work at the Office of the Auditor General.

I welcome Mr. Hayes. We understand that, normally, you can't talk about the process or the intentions of an audit until the audit report is tabled; otherwise it will colour the results and nature of the investigation with which the Office of the Auditor General is tasked. As Canadians, we trust and know that these audits are conducted in a neutral, objective and factual manner.

I'm grateful for the testimony we've heard today. I'd like to give Mr. Hayes the opportunity to summarize what he's said today, and to reassure Canadians that they can have confidence in this process. This one was initiated by the Office of the Auditor General, and I'm grateful for that, but I would point out that the department, too, has committed to conducting its own investigations.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Hayes, you have the floor.

[Andrew Hayes]

Thank you.

From here onwards, it will look like any other audit for Parliament and the committee. We will do our work as we always do. According to audit standards, we will have access to department officials, foundation officials and the information we need. If we have any problems, as always, we will report it to Parliament.

The decision we took to launch this audit was one we made on the basis of our independence. We will always protect our independence vigorously. The fact that we are here before this committee today.... I know it can be, at times, frustrating—our not being able to share preliminary findings and the like. However, it is important that we preserve the integrity of our audit process. The important steps of providing our report and appearing in front of the committee after it has been produced to transparently answer all those questions at that point are critical aspects of our work.

We look forward to being back here with the representatives of the department and the foundation at the end of our audit work.

Thank you very much.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I have another question.

Under the way our committee works, at the end of an audit, we receive the Auditor General's report and then invite witnesses. Other committees work differently. Apparently, other committees are going to be looking at this.

In your opinion, is this a problem? Will it interfere with your work?

[Andrew Hayes]

No. I would say that, whenever we appear before a committee while an audit is underway, we cannot comment on facts or findings that are not yet in a filed report. That said, we are always willing to appear before committees of the House of Commons or the Senate.

It's important to emphasize that our independence is a crucial factor for us. We will always preserve that independence.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

On the subject of confidentiality, I know there are public accusations currently circulating. I have personally seen situations in committee where citizens' names were revealed and they were judged in the public square without proof.

I would like to have your office's assurance regarding the confidentiality of the identity of those involved.

[Andrew Hayes]

We take great care to preserve the identity of the people and companies we audit. In our reports, it is sometimes necessary to identify individuals or companies, but the decision to do so is carefully considered. It's not a decision we make without considering all the relevant factors.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We would expect nothing less.

Mr. Hayes, I want to thank you for appearing here today. You certainly have nothing to deflect when it comes to the manner in which you answered your questions. We know the rules going in that you don't release any results until the report is tabled to Parliament. In fact, you would probably be offside if you were to do that today, because Parliament is supreme.

I'm going to excuse the witness now.

Again, thank you very much for appearing here. You know this, and please pass on to the Auditor General that we are always happy to receive you here. Thank you again for being here and for fielding our questions.

I'm sure we'll see you all again soon.

On that note, I'm going to suspend this meeting. We will then go in camera to resume committee business.

I'll just remind folks: If you have no business before the committee in the in-camera portion, please excuse yourself as well.

Thank you very much.

[Proceedings continue in camera]