Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Have you ever heard of any issues regarding Mr. Doan and such issues in his prep for appearing before committee?

[Erin O'Gorman]

No.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

How far back does this mess with CBSA go, with its purchasing and its IT issues? This is not something that started with ArriveCAN. How long has it been going on and how did no one catch it?

[Erin O'Gorman]

That's what I'm trying to figure out.

As I said, when I started, there were questions regarding the documentation and the cost of ArriveCAN and it became very clear to me that the documents were not complete. We had to try to piece together the information as the questions came in.

I'm not sure how far back it goes. I've also launched an internal audit, which will give me some further information, and certainly the procurement ombud and the Auditor General have shed more light on the issue, but the systems and processes were not in place and the suggestion to me is that some of that does predate the pandemic and was maybe exacerbated by the pandemic.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

That's the time, Mr. McCauley.

Mrs. Shanahan, you have the floor now for six minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I just want to put on the record that indeed I had questions prepared for all the witnesses we were expecting today, because this is the job of this committee. On the public accounts committee, unlike government operations or ethics or other committees that you'll find here on the Hill, our job is to question the deputy ministers and the executive directors—the public servants, if you will—of all departments that are reviewed by the Auditor General.

Auditor General, I want to thank you for the work that you and your team have done in providing this report to this committee, to Parliament and to Canadians. Canadians have every reason to be proud of the professionalism and the impartiality that your team brings to the work that you do.

I, for one, am a long-standing member of the public accounts committee, and from time to time we need to remind Canadians about the importance of our work here and being impartial. In fact, I think it was a former NDP member who said one should not be able to tell which party a questioner comes from when they are questioning.

Yes, I am shocked. I am outraged by the findings in this report, as are my colleagues.

I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed that during a once-in-a-century pandemic, at a time when the public service was pulling out all stops to help Canadians, to bring forward life-saving vaccines, to provide necessary supports, to work in what was an environment where there were many unknowns, some individuals, some public servants, it appears—and it's not my place here to name them; that investigation, that work will be done elsewhere, as is appropriate—decided, as the Auditor General said yesterday, to throw the most basic financial management rules out the window.

We know that, from human nature, these things can happen, which is why we have measures in place, checks and balances, oversight measures, in order to find out what is going on.

Auditor General, first of all, this is not the first time you've looked at ArriveCAN. Please briefly summarize the findings of the first report that you did.

[Karen Hogan]

This is the first time that I've looked at the development and implementation of the ArriveCAN application itself.

We did audit the use of ArriveCAN in 2021, when we were looking at border measures. We completed two audits in 2021 around border measures, and the second one noted that ArriveCAN contributed to an improved response by the government at the border. It improved the quality of the information, the contact information collected from travellers, and the timeliness of that information. Beforehand, the paper-based system at times took something like 28 days for the Public Health Agency to receive contact information from an individual who should have been quarantining, and it's not worth very much when you're trying to see if they quarantined for 14 days and you only receive the information after 28 days.

We did highlight there that it improved the measures at the border, but we did not actually look at the application until we issued this report yesterday.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much for that, because I agree with those findings. I also agree with the findings, in their entirety, of the ArriveCAN report that you tabled yesterday.

The application was needed, but it cost too much.

Auditor General, have you spoken to this committee before about how you choose to audit departments and how you come to do the work that you do? Could you tell us how long you have been working on this audit?

[Karen Hogan]

We received a motion from the House of Commons back in November—I'm just going to double-check—on November 2, 2022, that asked us to complete work on the ArriveCAN application. While it's important for the independence of my office for me to be able to choose whom we audit, what we audit and when we audit it, I also take very seriously requests that come from the House of Commons or the Senate.

In this case, we decided that it was an important audit to carry out. We intended to release it before the holidays at the end of 2023, but had to extend some of the time needed in order to finalize the work, and tabled it yesterday.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Auditor General.

Indeed, you were working on different aspects of this study, were you not? Our committee did ask you to continue your work on ArriveCAN. There was a letter on record back in October, which perhaps the clerk can provide for members who don't recall it.

I'm just trying to make the point that the independence of your office is critical, but I understand that you do respond to the concerns of parliamentarians, and we greatly appreciate the fact that you do so.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mrs. Shanahan, you have time for a very brief question.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Ms. O'Gorman, I just want to hear you and thank you for your remarks.

Can you please explain this to us? As the Auditor General points out in paragraph 1.40, there was a lack of “sound justification” for the selection of GC Strategies. Where was the gap in the chain of command? Why was this not uncovered sooner?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I'll tell you that we have also been looking to answer that. To the extent that I knew there was a gap, I was open to the Auditor General perhaps finding the answer. We have an internal investigation going on. As I said, the documentation was not good, and the inability to answer the question as to who picked that company has been hanging over the agency for over a year now.

What we do know is who signed the documents, who signed the requisition form to PSPC asking that a contract be put in place and that individuals exercise their authorities, significant authorities vested in the FAA in their section 32 and section 34 attestations.

There's been testimony that there was pressure and other people took decisions. I'm open to having that play out. I have not seen any evidence to that, so all we have to go on right now is the paper.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Good afternoon, everyone.

Thank you for being here.

Madam Auditor General, I want to quickly address you about a question I asked yesterday, and I hope to get answers to it today. It concerned Public Services and Procurement Canada warning the Canada Border Services Agency about failure to comply with certain processes or overuse of non-competitive processes at the agency.

Do you have more information on the nature of those warnings? More importantly, from whom to whom are they issued?

[Karen Hogan]

I want to make sure I understand the question. Do you mean once Public Services and Procurement Canada began calling the non-competitive process into question?

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Yes.

[Karen Hogan]

It was done by email in May 2020.

A manager at Public Services and Procurement Canada emailed the people responsible for the process, but he also sent a copy of it to the then executive director of the unit managing the ArriveCAN app.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

So a copy of that email was sent to Mr. Utano.

[Karen Hogan]

Yes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay.

You're saying it was a copy. So who were the main recipients at the Canada Border Services Agency?

[Karen Hogan]

The people who were going to set up the contracts. They were below the managers in the hierarchy.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Do you know if those people are still working there? Were you able to ask them questions?

[Karen Hogan]

No. I think they are no longer in their positions at the agency.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Were they transferred to another department? Are they still working for the public service?