Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Getting back to the use of a non-competitive process, we've heard that it was time-sensitive, that we had to get moving on this. Then it took 12 to 63 calendar days from the day Public Services and Procurement received the agency's request to the day the contract was awarded. Sixty-three calendar days would have allowed for a competitive process.

Do you have any inkling why it would take that long to award a contract?

[Erin O'Gorman]

No. I think that question would be better posed to Public Services and Procurement. However, I think what's behind your question is this: Given that time, why wasn't a competitive process launched? I think that's a very good question as we look at the rationale for sole-source contracts versus competitive.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

That's why it would have been advantageous to have some of these other agencies that were willing to appear today, to be here, so that we could ask the appropriate questions to the appropriate witnesses. I apologize for that.

Now, I don't think there's any question that the ArriveCAN app was necessary at the time to expedite the handling and processing of people's travel documents at a very unique time. However, it's always very important to ensure that we get value for money spent for the taxpayers' dollars.

Clearly, the Canada Border Services Agency didn't feel they had the internal capability to develop this app, which is understandable—they're not app developers—but I'm just wondering why they continued to rely on external contract people, who were very expensive, once the app was developed, rather than turning it over and using internal resources. Do you have any insight as to why that's the case?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I'll say a couple of words, if I may, and then turn it over to the chief information officer for CBSA.

There are three types of resources: one, very specialized people, whom CBSA, frankly, doesn't need to hire permanently; two, people who are very hard to recruit; and three, people who are just in the habit of continuing to do work. CBSA, at some point, ought to have said, “We need a plan to convert these functions into our staff. We need them for long enough that we need to do that.” There are a few different types of resources. I think what we found was that there was an absence of an off-ramp plan and those resources continued to be used.

I'll turn it over to Darryl.

[Darryl Vleeming, Vice-President and Chief Information Officer, Canada Border Services Agency]

First, I've only been in the public service for 10 months, so I can't comment specifically about what happened before that. However, what appears to have happened is that contractors did come in, and they weren't necessarily used as effectively as they could be. What I mean is that contractors can provide a very valuable service from a staff augmentation perspective, but they also tend to be more effective when you cross-train your own staff, and then when the project is done, the contractors go away. It appears that didn't happen.

Second, I think Catherine Luelo has previously testified before this committee or OGGO that there's a massive shortage of tech talent in Canada. It is extremely hard to attract and retain that, and that's both in private industry and in government. We really do struggle. At one point, we had 200 and some open positions in CBSA alone, and there are thousands across government, for the new cutting-edge skill set. It is very difficult to attract.... I think it's that combination of things—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Vleeming, I'm going to pause you there. We're well over the time, but I'm sure we'll come back to you for additional answers shortly.

We now go to Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to come back to Ms. O'Gorman.

Ms. O'Gorman, you've been the president of the agency for 19 months. You now have the opportunity to tell us how you cleaned things up, in concrete terms. How many employees were disciplined?

Give us information. Give us something we can look into.

[Erin O'Gorman]

I wouldn't say that the organization needed to be cleaned up.

I think it's important to point out that the employees of CBSA are working every day at the front line, across the country, around the world, doing excellent work.

Your question is related to discipline, I believe. I can say that a few dozen harassment investigations are conducted each year within the agency.

Some of those are founded; some of those are not founded. When they're founded, action can be taken, including discipline, retraining—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

You seem to be talking about harassment in general, like one employee harassing another.

However, I'm talking specifically about what Mr. Sabourin had described as wrongdoing that could be widespread corruption within the agency.

You're telling me there's no problem at the agency. Is that correct?

That's a bit of an issue.

[Erin O'Gorman]

No, I mentioned the word “harassment”.

These are misconduct investigations.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Yes, but I'm not talking about harassment. I'd appreciate it if you could answer my questions.

[Erin O'Gorman]

I am sorry. These are misconduct investigations.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay, but there's collusion with businesses, for example, in the awarding of contracts. That's what we learned from the Auditor General's report. We also learned that companies are forging signatures and that the RCMP is investigating the matter.

There are a number of levels. First, procurement processes were not followed. Then there's collusion with businesses. Gifts were also accepted. It's not just one or two people. Many people at the Canada Border Services Agency are involved in this matter, not just the two employees who were suspended. Yes, those two individuals are highly implicated and under investigation.

However, you're saying that there's no real problem at the agency. That's a bit of an issue.

[Erin O'Gorman]

No. I was saying that, in any given year, dozens of misconduct allegations are investigated. Many of those are founded and discipline is taken.

I don't know whether there are many employees implicated in receiving gifts from contractors. I can't give you an exact number.

Also, I would point to the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act. For people who fear reprisal and want to make an allegation, there's a separate body people can go to that itself can investigate any department and protect the people who go to them with allegations.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We're now turning to Mr. Desjarlais.

You have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to follow up on the nature of how these contracts were entered into.

I think there are lessons learned as to how not only CBSA but also, in this case, Canadians can fall victim to such an atrocity, and how it happens throughout the decades. Canadians know this happens. They know it's happened through the Phoenix pay system. They know these contracts can become huge and it hurts the public service at the end of the day.

The information officer just made mention of talent. For example, information systems technology is very hard to come by in Canada. It's very difficult. It's competitive. You pay a lot of money for it. The civil service, at some point.... We've had testimony in this committee before to the effect that when we had those skilled experts, we found there was a reduction of them throughout a period of time. That reduction largely fed them into the private system, where they can now come back and say, “You need us more than we need you.” Then we see these very stiff penalties and requirements when forced to work with them.

This dependency is the issue, in my mind. The rot at the core of the system is that we so dramatically underfunded our civil service that we are now forced into a dependency situation where we are vulnerable to companies like GC Strategies, which used an opportunity to take more and more. In addition, there's a massive failure of our public service to report and to be agile enough to make sure there is enough reporting to make the picture we're talking about today far clearer.

That is the truth, from my perspective, and that's what we need to get to the bottom of. Absent an RCMP investigation, which I think is warranted and required in this work, we're here today to discuss the findings of this audit, which are largely about issues around the public service not reporting.

Let's go back to how these contracts get signed. There were three non-competitive contracts. The Auditor General mentioned those contracts were entered into and likely, from my perspective, influenced by gifts, events and dinners. Those events, gifts and dinners were not reported to the CBSA. Is that correct?

This is to the Auditor General.

[Karen Hogan]

We didn't see any evidence that employees who were invited to events reported it to their supervisors. This doesn't mean it didn't happen verbally. There was no documented evidence. I would have expected to see that. It's so a supervisor can put in mitigating measures, if needed, in order to ensure there isn't an apparent or real conflict of interest in the procurement process.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

That conflict now is very real.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Be very brief, Mr. Desjarlais.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Sure.

This is on the last contract that was competitive. Given the criticism of those former contracts and the receiving of those contracts, how were they eligible for that contract, and, especially, how could they influence that contract the way they did? We have evidence of that.

[Erin O'Gorman]

All I can say is that I don't believe that evidence was available at the time the contract was competed.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We're turning now to Mr. Genuis.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Paragraph 1.56 of the report says:

We found that GC Strategies was involved in the development of the requirements that the Canada Border Services Agency ultimately included in the request for proposal.

This means GC Strategies sat down with people in the government and worked out aspects of the nature of the requirements that GC Strategies bid on and then got. This means the process was rigged.

Ms. O'Gorman, can you tell us why the process was rigged in favour of GC Strategies?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I wasn't there at the time.

I think what you set out is what the evidence is demonstrating. In terms of the motivation, I don't have enough information to speak to that.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You agree that the process was rigged, but you don't know why it was rigged. Is that what you're telling us?