Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[Karen Hogan]

The source of the documentation is one of our concerns. It wasn't maintained in official corporate records. I would expect it to be there. It is very unclear who the individual is speaking to. It appears to be a briefing note for a committee appearance. I have heard no testimony around it.

It remains that whoever decided to award a certain contract needs to be properly documented. What we do have on file is that a contract requisition was signed by the executive director. Exercising delegated authority in the public service comes with responsibility and accountability.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Who? Who? Who?

Ms. O'Gorman, we've also discussed today the missing documentation of Mr. Minh Doan. The Auditor General, in her testimony yesterday, said that she can't determine.... It could have been either deleted or destroyed. Again, for this committee and for Canadians, can you please verify the information that you have relative to this documentation of the former CIO specifically?

[Erin O'Gorman]

We have received allegations that emails were deleted. Those allegations were provided to our director of security, and there is an investigation into those allegations.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

You can't provide anything further at this time, other than these allegations.

[Erin O'Gorman]

They're being investigated.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Who are they being investigated by, please?

[Erin O'Gorman]

They are investigated by members of our security team under the direction of Monsieur Lafleur.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Will you be receiving any update on these investigations prior to the final release of the report?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I don't know. If there is material information that I should be made aware of, I'm confident they will provide it to me, as they have in other investigations.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

When is this report expected to be finished?

[Erin O'Gorman]

As I said, if there is information, I'm confident they'll give it to me. I don't know when, and I don't know if there will be information before the final report. It's under way. I don't always receive information before a final report. Sometimes I do, but it's not always the case.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Sometimes, apparently, you don't.

Ms. O'Gorman, in this committee, in this Parliament right now, Canadians are absolutely seized with the ArriveCAN app—the “ArriveScam” app—because we have a minimum of $60 million that has been spent, but as a result of incomplete documentation it could be more than $60 million.

Of the invoices submitted by contractors, 18% did not have supporting documentation. As uncovered by the Auditor General, who is here today, “$12.2 million...could be unrelated to ArriveCAN.” You yourself, in this meeting alone, were unaware of contempt of the information officer. You were unaware of bonuses awarded to two employees, who have now been suspended—the most grave action in the public service. You didn't inform the AG of the RCMP investigation. You didn't inform the government operations committee in November 2022 of the RCMP investigation of GC Strategies.

CBSA has 14,000 employees. Do you believe you still have their confidence before us here today?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Once again, Chair, I'm not sure why the need to impugn my integrity.

I will correct—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Do you think you have their confidence?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I'm going to correct something that was said. When I—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I'm asking you this: Do you think you have their confidence here today?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Mr. Chair, may I correct one of the statements?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mrs. Kusie, your time is almost up, and—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Then I'll end with this: Do you believe you still have the confidence of the minister and of this government?

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have the floor, Ms. O'Gorman.

[Erin O'Gorman]

It's false to say that I didn't inform the government operations committee of the RCMP investigation. When I appeared, nothing had been referred to the RCMP.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mrs. Kusie.

[Erin O'Gorman]

That's not correct. I appeared on November 14, and the referral to the RCMP was formally done in January; it was informally done in December and late November. We hadn't referred anything to the RCMP when I appeared, so it's not correct to say that.

I know the committee had tried to hold me in contempt for that. It's incorrect that I did not give the committee relevant information. Nothing had been referred to anybody at that point.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Khalid, you have the floor for five minutes, please.