Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[Erin O'Gorman]

Mr. Chair, I'm just going to address the reference to “whose emails were also deleted”. I don't know that that's the case, and I don't know what that's in reference to. I just don't want to let that hang out there. If there's more precision.... I'm not aware of more emails having been deleted.

In terms of ArriveCAN, the names that were on task authorizations for people who did work had the requisite security clearance. Four names were found that were not on task authorizations, where security clearance could not be confirmed.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Chair, my question was this: Can you confirm today that, across the agency, there are no contractors or subcontractors who are operating without the requisite security clearance? Can you confirm that?

[Erin O'Gorman]

The information I have is that they do have the requisite security clearance.

If there's something in particular that you're referring to—

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I'm referring to across the agency. There is an appalling lack of documentation across your agency—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Nater. That is your time. The question was answered.

I'm turning now to Mrs. Shanahan.

You have the last five minutes, please.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I'd like to go back to the issue of the challenge function and exactly how that would work.

Again, I'm very preoccupied by the fact that, yes, this happened, but also that the normal checks and balances did not seem to be in place. We know human nature. In any organization, you're going to have some bad apples, but we need to understand how an organization protects its operations from that happening again.

In the Auditor General's report, paragraph 1.48 says:

We found that the Canada Border Services Agency’s Information, Science and Technology Branch, which led the development of the ArriveCAN application, directly engaged with Public Services and Procurement Canada for contracting purposes. There was no evidence that the agency’s own Procurement Directorate was regularly involved in the contracting process.

Ms. O'Gorman, have you investigated, confirmed or explored exactly what happened there? Was the procurement directorate completely bypassed in this process?

[Erin O'Gorman]

My understanding is that they received certain information, but there was a direct path from individuals within the IT group to PSPC to discuss contracts. For whatever reason, the procurement function wasn't an intermediary to that.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

How would that pathway have been developed?

That's why I would have liked to have those officials here from PSPC, to be able to ask them that question, Chair.

From where you sit, how would that have been the case? If the procurement directorate had some idea that something was going on, could they not have said, “Hey, wait a minute. Something is going on here. This is not right. We haven't signed off.”

Could red flags have been raised?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Yes, they could have.

The roles and responsibilities with regard to procurement are quite well established, including the business owner, those who might need a contracted resource; the contracting authority, who is the interface; and PSPC for contracts over a certain amount of time.

What's in place now is the correct roles and responsibilities, where the people in IT would go through the CBSA's procurement function, whether that's then onward to PSPC or for a contract within CBSA's authorities. Those have been established.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Are there measures in place that PSPC, for example, cannot accept anything from CBSA unless there's the proper sign-off?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Yes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

For some reason, they did accept procurement. They did accept those contracts.

[Erin O'Gorman]

I don't know that I would put that at the feet of PSPC. Having not been there, I don't know if it was the exigent circumstances, so I can't speak to that, and I wouldn't put that at the feet of PSPC.

Mr. Chair, you will speak to officials from that department, but my role is to make sure the right people in CBSA are interfacing with PSPC, and that's what I've put in place.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

For the procurement directorate itself, what oversight is in place there? I can understand if there's one place where incorrect invoicing.... Typically, what do we see in any kind of big project? It's padding the invoices and so on, but here we didn't even have details on the invoices to begin with.

[Erin O'Gorman]

Exactly. It's the procurement directorate's function to provide that oversight and to require and insist that the appropriate level of information is contained, be it in a task authorization or an invoice, all the way to the coding for payment. That is their function, to carry out that oversight. The assurance function will make sure that it's being done regularly and properly and that the files are complete.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

With the remainder of my time, is there anything else that you'd like to add to your testimony today, Ms. O'Gorman?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I would only add that I share the concerns. I do hope that it doesn't risk the trust of Canadians in the functioning of the CBSA and the critical work being done by employees, border service officers across the country and around the world. The work they do day in and day out is excellent, and it's important.

We are fixing this. We are troubled by this, but I would hate for that to get extended to the people who are doing that and other critical activities across the organization.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I apologize for some of the exchanges that occurred here today.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank the officials from CBSA, as well as from the OAG, for coming in today.

That concludes our meeting. We're back on Thursday with the environment commissioner.

For now, I bid you a good week.

This meeting is adjourned.