It was quite widespread, though.
Evidence of meeting #99 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #99 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A video is available from Parliament.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
3:45 p.m.
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
I think there are many individuals who play a critical role when it comes to making sure procurement and projects are well documented.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Is it the same issue with the inaccurate financial records that you commented on? Is it the same issue throughout the department? Is it not just one position, but throughout this project or throughout the department?
3:45 p.m.
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Again, I think it starts with the person who might accept an invoice with insufficient information and then certify and sign off that the government received what it should have received. Whoever does the coding and then whoever does the entry into the financial system....
Again, I think you have the luxury of having the president of CBSA here. Some of these questions are well directed at her, as to who would have been accountable and how many individuals would be involved in a process to treat an invoice.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
President O'Gorman, maybe you can answer that in writing, because we're short of time. Maybe you can get back to the committee on that, because I want to move on to another question.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
The question is, who or what positions were responsible for or should have been collecting and ensuring all the paper was there? Also, as the AG commented, who was responsible for the inaccurate financial records? I assume it's not just one person.
Maybe you can get back to the committee with which departments and which projects, etc.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Is it possible for you to do that in writing after the meeting?
3:45 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I can answer it or come back in writing.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Provide it in writing, please, because we're short of time.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I want to follow up.
The two gentlemen, Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Utano, both received performance bonuses last year and the years before that, did they not?
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
They did. I am telling you. I am surprised that you would not know, considering the gravity of the situation. I am stunned that's not part of the....
How did they receive bonuses if they are the subject of these accusations?
3:45 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I wasn't aware of who received bonuses.
To your question, they would have been assessed at the end of the fiscal year and to the extent that there is information—
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
One moment they're assessed well enough to receive a bonus, and the next moment they're history's greatest monsters in CBSA, according to some of these documents. It just seems quite strange.
3:45 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I can answer that question, Mr. Chair, if—
3:50 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
There are mechanisms, if information comes to light after performance ratings are done, to be able to reconsider those ratings.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
The operations and estimates committee first started this ArriveCAN investigation in October 2022. Why did it take all the way up to the Botler allegations for CBSA to actually act and start looking more seriously at this rather lackadaisical effort?
3:50 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
There are two things.
First, when the study was started and we were bringing information together to respond to the committee, it was clear to me that the documentation was incomplete and inadequate. The study was started in October, and the Botler allegations came in November—the following month.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I want to read to you a text. This is from Mr. Doan and it is before his appearance: “My issue is what I want to say and what I can't say. Can I throw PHAC under the bus, throw ministers under the bus?”
What do you think Mr. Doan was referencing when he said that he could not speak to these for fear of throwing PHAC or ministers under the bus?
3:50 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
This is the first I've heard of that text.