Evidence of meeting #99 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A video is available from Parliament.
4 p.m.
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
I don't know if they are still working in the public service, but they are no longer with the agency.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
So, in your audit, you didn't ask them why the recommendations hadn't been followed.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
In your audit, we learned that the recommendations made by Public Services and Procurement Canada were not followed, but we don't know why.
Do you know why the recommendations were not followed?
4 p.m.
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
No.
There's nothing in the file about their reasons for not following the recommendations of Public Services and Procurement Canada.
We interviewed managers who no longer work at the agency but are still part of the public service. However, we did not conduct audits at lower levels in the hierarchy.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Okay.
We can go back even further, to 2018. In fact, one Mr. Sabourin, who worked at the Canada Border Services Agency, was a whistleblower. We in the Bloc Québécois wanted to protect him—a bill was even passed. Mr. Sabourin reported highly objectionable wrongdoing at the agency.
So this has been going on for a long time. Other services, including some within the government, have stated that certain processes were not followed.
Let's look at the timeline of events.
In 2018, something was put in a whistleblower's coffee after he reported wrongdoing for everyone's benefit. He had to resign or leave for medical reasons because he was intimidated at the agency. So we've known for a number of years that there's a problem.
Ms. O'Gorman, you've been in your position since July 2022, I believe. So it's been over a year and a half. Did you receive a clear mandate from the government to clean things up at the agency, yes or no?
4 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I'm working on cleaning things up, but clearly, according to the two ministers I report to—
I will continue in English. I apologize.
Their expectation is clear: If there is wrongdoing, it needs to be found out—
4 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
—as well as if there are problems with the systems and processes.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Have you discussed these matters with the two ministers you report to?
4 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I mentioned to both ministers that there were procurement issues around management.
4 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
When these allegations came up, I informed Minister Mendicino that the allegations were serious. We were taking them seriously. I was also making moves on internal processes to shore up information and systems and processes problems that I was already seeing. In my initial brief with the minister in the summer when he was appointed, when I did an overview of all the things that concerned us, I raised the issue of addressing systems and processes and contracting issues in the agency very clearly.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Okay.
What instructions were you given with respect to cleaning up? For example, were you asked to follow up on certain individuals who had been suspended?
How many people were suspended or shown the—? We know there are two. Are there more?
What Mr. Sabourin revealed, starting in 2018, is that this seems to be quite widespread within the agency. Were others laid off?
To what extent did you clean up? I'd like some concrete information on that.
4:05 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I made it clear that this was my priority. On the question of harassment, I take that very seriously and, in that, any intimidation. Our systems and processes need to have the confidence of our employees—
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
I don't have much time left.
Have people been laid off or suspended as a result of these allegations?
You say you take these allegations seriously, but what have you done in concrete terms?
4:05 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I'm not sure about the specific allegations you're referring to, but we have taken action on founded allegations, and we have taken disciplinary action. However, I'm not going to speak about specific actions and specific individuals.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Mr. Desjarlais, you now have the floor for six minutes.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I too want to thank the Auditor General and her team for a very important audit and, of course, the audit's role in what is hopefully a process to make things much better, because this, in my opinion, is one of the worst, if not the worst, audits I've ever seen. Hopefully we can level how serious this is with you and members of the CBSA and how it is simply unacceptable and it must change.
I really do hope you take seriously the recommendations that are outlined in this audit and find better ways to ensure that you can go beyond that.
Before I get into some of that work, I just want to touch on how upsetting this is and how rightfully upset Canadians are. You can just imagine those persons—a single mom, people who are having a hard time trying to get into work or people who are struggling to make ends meet—finding out that in the cost of living crisis we're experiencing right now the federal government has opened the doors to rich consultants getting even richer.
We saw in the audit, for example, some very serious issues of overbilling, and there are immense issues of vulnerability in the contracting processes. The report estimated that $59.5 million was handed over to these wealthy consultants, such as GC Strategies, the one we're auditing today, but this is a story that began in 2020. I believe you were at CBSA during that time, when contracts, including the $20-million competitive one, were tendered.
If that is not the case, then I acknowledge that, but I think there were several instances and several issues. One was with that contract alone, the contract that allowed rich consultants to define their competition directly, right from the person issuing the bid. That's a huge issue. I'll be touching on that in my subsequent round.
The first issue I want to deal with, however, is the non-competitive processes that CBSA undertook in order to get the original contracts, three of them I believe. These contracts were not properly disclosed even to the Auditor General, I understand. Much of that information is still unknown, and that's at the core of why we're asking these important questions.
My concern for this round of questions is with the first set of contracts and the very ill proceedings that led to GC Strategies getting these contracts. We saw in the audit, for example, that they were invited to dinner. They were given gifts. Some of these issues involving direct conflicts of interest were not reported to CBSA, and that is something that should give us all pause. That level of transparency has not been available to this committee. It is deeply concerning not to know exactly how these non-competitive contracts were able to be entered into.
What do you know about the events and the gifts received by these two men in order to do services and get access to a non-competitive process?
4:05 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
Okay, I'll say a few things.
It is unacceptable. It's absolutely unacceptable, and the systems, I would argue, and the absence of controls allowed for the existence of the vulnerabilities you referred to.
The procurement ombud, when he was testifying at another committee, indicated that in an emergency it might be good practice to go to a consultant or contractor you know, but that you would document that. The lack of documentation is what's giving rise to all of these questions that we can't answer. I absolutely agree.
The awarding of subsequent sole-source contracts just elevates those questions even more. To me, there could have been a justification at the outset, when we had to move quickly. This was a company we might have been working with that had supplied people who could do the ones and zeros, who had worked with our people to deliver something, but none of that was written down.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
From your investigations and your understanding, how long have these gentlemen at GC Strategies been involved with CBSA?
4:10 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
My understanding, based on the documents I've seen, is that GC Strategies worked as a subcontractor to another firm prior to the pandemic. I don't believe there was a specific contract with GC Strategies, but I might be mistaken on that. I can come back in writing to clarify.
However, before the pandemic, they were a subcontractor to another company, and the individuals who were working with CBSA staff on a mobile application were the same individuals who came in to work with CBSA staff on ArriveCAN.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Let me try to understand what you just said. They were a subcontractor before the COVID-19 pandemic. Under the practice of knowing somebody to do quick work, you're saying that they had access because those civil servants knew them and were aware of GC Strategies. Is that correct?