Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll allow an answer.

Go ahead, Ms. O'Gorman.

[Erin O'Gorman]

I don't have a date when I was made aware of that, but as you know, it was part of the internal investigation. It came to light as a result of the internal investigation.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Khalid, you have the floor now for five minutes, please.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair, and to the witnesses for being here today.

At the outset, I will say that earlier today at the ethics committee, members from the Conservative Party were able to ask questions of PSPC officials on this very topic, ArriveCAN, rather than the topic that was being studied. We here in public accounts are being denied that privilege to be able to have both of these officials together to ask these questions.

Ms. O'Gorman, perhaps I'll start with you.

Did you receive a briefing on the ArriveCAN file from the former president at the time you transitioned over?

[Erin O'Gorman]

No.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Other than ArriveCAN, how did you transition into your role?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I had a general briefing with the previous president, but I had briefings from the team that was supporting me when I got into the job.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Are you at all surprised by the findings in the AG's report of yesterday?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I am.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I appreciate that the report only came out yesterday, but can you share any plans the CBSA has to address these recommendations?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Sure.

When I say I'm surprised, I'm not surprised entirely at what the Auditor General found, because I've been finding that. As I understand how the department was working, the fact that there was a path from the IT group straight into procurement at PSPC, that's not a best practice.

As I was understanding and looking at the information that was available and wasn't available, I saw that there were issues, and I've taken action. I will continue to take action, and the Auditor General and the procurement ombud have put a finer point on that.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you for that.

I will echo the concern of my colleagues and the disappointment, because it really does tarnish the very hard work that CBSA officers on the front lines put in day in and day out to keep us safe, to keep our country moving, to keep goods flowing through and to provide that support to Canadians.

I think there's a lot of work that CBSA needs to do to rebuild that public trust. Ms. O'Gorman, have you taken any steps now to try to start rebuilding that public trust?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Absolutely. We will be transparent in the actions we're taking. We will report on what we're doing. We're committed to implementing all of this in this calendar year.

I would just note more broadly, and to the comments that were made, that I do believe the actions of border service officers day in and day out are critical to maintaining that trust, and that's what they're doing.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

I hope that we can follow up as you build that plan to build that trust. I think it would be prudent for this committee to keep updated on that.

Ms. Hogan, if I may turn to you, my colleague across the way, Mr. Brock, referred to an ATIP with respect to the former president and GC Strategies. Are you aware of that document? Were you aware of that question that Mr. Brock asked?

[Karen Hogan]

Yes, our team has seen that document. Absolutely.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Can you describe the context of it? We haven't seen that document ourselves.

[Karen Hogan]

I have looked at it. It looks like a briefing note for a committee appearance. I'm not sure who the briefing note is for. I don't know who the “my” is in the statement. It appears to be someone who was going to come to testify at a committee, and I'm not aware if that appearance even occurred.

I would have read the “my” to be the directorate or the branch that was responsible for the implementation and development of ArriveCAN, but again that wasn't.... It was provided, I think, through information that a committee had.

When we started our audit, not only did we look at the records that the Canada Border Services Agency had, but we also went to parliamentary committees that had been studying this to get their information so that we could cross-reference and make sure we had a comprehensive list of documents.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

To clarify, Ms. Hogan, do you believe that corruption is rampant in the CBSA, or is this a matter of a few bad apples, or is it just bad documentation during a difficult time? Can you provide that clarity?

[Karen Hogan]

I'll leave the decision as to whether an action was of a criminal nature to the authority on that, which is the RCMP.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much.

Those are my questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

It is now Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné's turn.

You have the floor for two and a half minutes, Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I have to say that I'm starting to get upset hearing and seeing my colleagues across the way really trying to minimize what was revealed in the Auditor General's report by saying that this was two bad apples, or maybe it was just because times were tough during the pandemic and maybe a little misconduct is really nothing to worry about. Do they really think that at this point?

Ms. Hogan said that this was the worst report she had seen in her career as Auditor General. I think I really have a problem with them trying to minimize these actions right now.

We're talking about people not following processes after they have been warned by Public Services and Procurement Canada. We're talking about collusion with businesses, not that there wasn't enough time. No.

GC Strategies helped draft one of the RFPs that was used to offer them several million dollars. So it's collusion, if not worse, and it's a huge problem. There have been a number of references to gifts being accepted and not reported to the authorities.

I'll tell you one thing: I spent my career in consulting firms. I worked in the field for eight years. In the three consulting firms I worked for, I never won a single contract without submitting a proposal. Whenever I entered into agreements with public servants or teams in companies, there was more than one person involved in the process. It wasn't just the CEO; entire teams were involved.

Criminal offences have likely been committed, so we're not talking about two bad apples, but about a more general attitude within an agency funded directly with public funds. This is a very important issue.

I'd like to know to what extent the ministers responsible are involved. Personally, if I were a minister—and that won't happen at the federal level—and I had heard about anything of this magnitude, I would have followed up weekly with the agency, with you, Ms. O'Gorman.

Have you been involved in frequent follow‑up on this important issue?

[Erin O'Gorman]

The minister has made clear his expectations. I have told him of my plans to fix it.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

When did you do that?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I make no assumptions about the degree to which he is not concerned about this. I think he's very concerned.