Evidence of meeting #17 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
I was just referring to the collective intelligence community in Canada. I wasn't directing it at CSIS; I was just characterizing the whole situation.
9:45 a.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I was just trying to be more specific, because I'm here speaking only on behalf of CSIS.
To get to the point of your question, though, I said in my opening comments, in part in response to other reviews that have been done, including the SIRC review of Mr. Arar's case, that CSIS has already changed its policies in respect of information sharing and assessments with foreign governments. We are looking now, in light of Mr. Justice O'Connor's report, at other steps that may be taken to further provide security in respect of information exchanges with foreign governments. We have, I think it's fair to say, modified our policies and practices in that regard over the past several years in light of reviews that have been done.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Can you be more specific, if you don't mind, about what policies have changed, from what, and what is the outcome of the new policy?
9:45 a.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Any information that we now provide to a foreign government with respect to an individual is heavily caveated in terms of how it may be used. As I said in my opening comments, we're much more rigorous in terms of doing assessments on a foreign country's records and practices, which in turn has a bearing on whether or not, in the first instance, we would share any information with them.
I think we've made some advances in training and preparation of our staff to deal with these issues. The broader point, too, is that CSIS, as an intelligence agency, is without a doubt the most reviewed intelligence service in the world. We have two external review bodies that throughout the year conduct reviews and assessments on our operations and practices and policies, and we're constantly changing them in response.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Sorry, I'm running out of time.
My other question is whether you could give us your assessment right now on the involvement of the RCMP in intelligence and information collection, especially after 9/11. It was perceived prior to 9/11 that CSIS was doing the intelligence collection and the RCMP was more of a law enforcement agency, and now there seems to be some dual role or some duplicity in that role.
Can you give us your assessment of that, please?
9:45 a.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I think I would agree with Mr. Justice O'Connor's conclusions in that regard, which is to say that both agencies have a role to play in national security areas. Our role tends to be very much more on the intelligence front and the RCMP's tends to be much more in the realm of processes related to criminal prosecutions.
They have, I think it's fair to say, bolstered their efforts on the intelligence side, but in the past several years we've taken a number of steps with the RCMP bilaterally to ensure that there's greater coherence in terms of what each of us does and how we do it in the national security domain.
The minister, when he appeared before this committee, talked about a number of those things, including the renewed memorandum of understanding and a series of other steps that we've taken, including cooperation on targeting investigations, decisions, training, and so on. At the end of the day, I think both organizations do have a role to play in national security, but ours is more--still and only--intelligence-related; theirs is more on the criminal prosecution end.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you, Mr. Judd.
Monsieur Ménard, for five minutes, please.
9:50 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Mr. Elcock, if I understood the answer you gaveMr. MacKenzie correctly, you only learned that false information has been passed on to the American authorities by the RCMP when the whole matter was raised during Mr. Justice O'Connor inquiry. Is that correct?
9:50 a.m.
Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
No, I said that I was not aware of it until the commissioner's statement before the committee.
9:50 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
That is what I meant. Perhaps something got lost in the interpretation.
9:50 a.m.
Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
No, you said before the O'Connor commission.
9:50 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
So before the O'Connor Commission began its work, you were not aware that false information had been passed on?
9:50 a.m.
Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
No, I did not know until the commissioner made his statement before the parliamentary committee that there was some possibility that misinformation had been communicated.
9:50 a.m.
Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
No. When did the commissioner appear? That's within the last month or so.
9:50 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
So it was even later than the time at which the Commission began its work.
Were you aware of Mr. Arar's claims? You were also aware of his return from Syria, which received a great deal of media attention.
9:50 a.m.
Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
I was certainly aware of the publication of that information.
9:50 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I see.
So you knew that this Canadian citizen had been in prison in Syria and tortured because of his first involvement. When he returned to Canada, did he not become a person of interest to your service?
9:50 a.m.
Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
That's not a subject that I would be able to comment on. It has always been a practice of the service not to comment on the status of any individual.
9:50 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Of course, I have to go on with what would be reasonable to do. I think it would be reasonable for you to keep a closer eye on him and to obtain information from the American authorities.
Why did they take this extraordinary step of sending him to a country where people are interrogated in much more brutal ways than in Canada or the United States?
9:50 a.m.
Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
That may be your assumption, sir. I can't comment on that.
9:50 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I understand that you cannot do that in public. Would you feel more comfortable doing so in camera?
9:50 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Assuming you knew before he returned to this country that he had been sent over there because of mistakes made by the RCMP, would it not have been normal to communicate with the Syrian authorities to tell them that this individual had apparently been sent to them by mistake, and that unless they had other information about him, it would be wiser to release him, because he was believed to be innocent?