Public Safety Committee on Nov. 28th, 2006

[Anne McLellan]

Keep in mind that by the time I became minister, my whole focus was getting to the bottom of this. The kind of question you just asked would be part of getting to the bottom of this. And we knew, because of so many things that had transpired, that getting to the bottom of this was not going to happen simply by me or the government or PCO asking questions of various agencies. It was only going to happen by some kind of independent review.

So my focus was on the fact that we had a whole bunch of questions here that we didn't know the answers to. As every day went by, it was getting murkier and murkier, in part because of the leaks. The only way we were going to get to the bottom of this was to have some kind of independent mechanism.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay, but Mr. Cellucci in public would say--veiled, always--that Canada knows this information, knows why we used rendition against Mr. Arar. Would you not at that point go back to Commissioner—

[Anne McLellan]

As I remember from the discussions generally at the time when those comments were made, I think the Minister of Foreign Affairs, who I believe was Bill Graham at the time, reacted quite strongly to Mr. Cellucci's comments. My sense was that the minister rejected what was said by Mr. Cellucci if he meant that we were somehow complicitous in Mr. Arar's deportation. I think Mr. Graham generally tried to clarify, for himself and for the government and for others, that, no, we were not involved in Mr. Arar's deportation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Final question, Mr. Comartin, briefly.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

This was based on the information he was getting from the RCMP, which in fact was not accurate. They had in fact given the customs people in the United States, in that customs report, allegations that Mr. Arar was more than a person of interest.

[Anne McLellan]

I think it's quite clear from Mr. Justice O'Connor's report that incorrect information was provided by the RCMP to authorities in the United States. I did not know that at the time, and I would have had no reason to ask. I would have expected that the RCMP and any government agency would follow their normal protocols and normal methods of procedure. Only when I read Mr. Justice O'Connor's report did it become apparent to me that in fact the normal procedures around the exchange of information and the imposition of caveats had not been followed.

So I would have had no reason to ask that at the time. The rules are there. The guidelines are there. One presumes—

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You had the media leaks—

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Your time is now up, Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

—and you had those statements made by the other ministers from the other country. Would that not have prompted you to ask the question at that point?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Comartin, we'll have to move over to the Conservative Party. If they wish to pursue this, they may do so.

Mr. Brown, seven minutes.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome back to Parliament Hill, Ms. McLellan. It's good to see you again.

Today's testimony really leads to more questions, and I sense from hearing from the witnesses a real sense of frustration that we're really not getting any answers. In fact, what we're getting is leading to more questions.

One thing you've said was that you believed the Americans sent Mr. Arar to Syria based on their own information. In fact, you're the first one who's been quite clear on that. If that's the case, why do you believe the Government of Canada owes Mr. Arar an apology and could be on the hook for up to $400 million?

[Anne McLellan]

First of all, it's my assumption and it was always my assumption that the United States must have had some information of its own. Now, I could be wrong in that assumption. I don't know. Of course none of us know, because part of the problem was that the U.S. decided not to cooperate with Mr. Justice O'Connor's inquiry. So it was my assumption that you would not take a Canadian citizen, albeit a dual citizen, and send them to a third country unless you had some persuasive reasons for so doing. I assumed that the United States would have its own independent evidence as to why they would do that, but I could have been wrong in that assumption.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

We know you took up your duties with Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness in December of 2003, which was right after Mr. Arar came back to Canada and had his media conference where he advised us that he had been tortured, and he suspected, rightly, that there was Canadian complicity in the fact that he was sent there. So I take it, as a member of cabinet at the time, that you were aware of the case before you became the minister, and that after becoming the minister responsible for the RCMP you checked into it and saw that they may have supplied some inaccurate information to the Americans about him.

This is going back to my original question. Were you aware, for example, of your government's efforts to seek his release and the attempted one-voice letter?

[Anne McLellan]

Pardon me? I am sorry, I couldn't hear you.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Oh, I'm sorry. Were you aware, for example, of your government's efforts to seek his release in the attempted one-voice letter, at the time?

[Anne McLellan]

I think I was probably aware of the activities. Keep in mind, I was Minister of Health, but I think that at cabinet, at various points, if my memory serves me correctly, Mr. Graham would provide a general review of a host of issues, and it was quite clear we were very concerned about his deportation. In fact, as I mentioned in my opening comments, Mr. Graham was so concerned that the U.S. would deport a Canadian citizen to a third country that he immediately set about working with Colin Powell to reach an agreement by which we would hope that wouldn't happen again.

So, yes, if you're asking was I generally aware before I became Minister of Public Safety that there was an attempt to reassure or to make sure the Syrians understood that we wanted Mr. Arar returned, yes, and I think that was generally discussed.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Let's move on to when you were first appointed minister. Margaret Bloodworth was your deputy minister at the time, from the outset.

[Anne McLellan]

At the time—?

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

She was your deputy minister when you became the minister?

[Anne McLellan]

As of December 13, 2003, yes.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

And was she your deputy throughout your term in that portfolio?

[Anne McLellan]

Yes.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Okay. Now, I presume that you'd agree with me that Ms. Bloodworth is one of Ottawa's most experienced civil servants and that as minister you relied on her knowledge and accurate and timely and relevant information on all of the subjects, including things such as the gun registry issues and of course the Arar issues. Is that right?

[Anne McLellan]

Well, she was my deputy, and therefore she was involved in all the key issues and files in the department. For example, after our decision to go to a public inquiry, she worked very closely with then Deputy Minister of Justice Morris Rosenberg and Rob Wright, who was national security adviser, to determine the terms of reference for Mr. Justice O'Connor, and so on.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Okay, good. Can you tell us about the last time you spoke with Ms. Bloodworth? When was the last time you spoke to her?