Public Safety Committee on Nov. 28th, 2006

[Anne McLellan]

I agree entirely with the conclusions of Mr. Justice O'Connor in that matter, and I think you've just summarized them.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

So whether the Americans had any other sources of information or not, it might be relevant to try to understand why the Americans did what they did. It's still within our mandate, our responsibility in fact, that the RCMP had broken protocol and sent misleading information.

[Anne McLellan]

Absolutely. That is what Mr. Justice O'Connor concluded.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I don't think that fact is being disputed, especially after Mr. Justice O'Connor's report.

What I find interesting is that all three former ministers, including yourself, have told us that none of that information was shared with the ministers by the RCMP, that none of the information that was given to the United States authorities that was misleading was being shared with the ministers.

[Anne McLellan]

I can only speak for myself, but I was not aware that inaccurate information was provided by the RCMP to the Americans. I knew that information had been provided, and that would be perfectly normal. I did not know that inaccurate information had been provided.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

At the time you probably wouldn't have known if it was inaccurate or accurate, but were you told exactly what the information was that was shared with the American authorities?

[Anne McLellan]

I do not remember precise details, but I am sure that in a general sense, when I was briefed by the commissioner and others when I became Minister of Public Safety, I was told of concerns in relation to Mr. Arar being a person of interest. And I think I would have been told the fact that there were others. For example, as Mr. Justice O'Connor points out in his testimony, the reason it appears Mr. Arar was a person of interest was because of some of his associations. I think that general factual context was provided to me.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

But we know now that part of the information the RCMP had given to the American authorities said that they, the RCMP, considered Mr. Arar to be an Islamic extremist.

[Anne McLellan]

That was an expression never used in my presence.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

So there's obviously a disconnect between what information the RCMP had given the American authorities and what they had given the ministers, particularly you.

[Anne McLellan]

All I can say is that I do not, to the best of my recollection, ever remember being told that Mr. Arar was an Islamic extremist.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Now that you know that, what is your opinion of that disconnect? How do you categorize or what would you consider that behaviour? Was that incompetence? Was that a deliberate misleading of ministers?

[Anne McLellan]

Just as Mr. Justice O'Connor determined, I think there was no deliberate intent here to deceive. There was no complicity on the part of Canadian officials in Mr. Arar's deportation to Syria. Mr. Justice O'Connor is very clear about that. I think mistakes were made, as I said in my opening statement.

There were normal processes that anyone, including any minister and any Canadian, would have the right to expect the RCMP to follow. There is a serious question that I think Mr. Justice O'Connor addresses as really the heart of the matter in some respects. The processes were in place. He finds that conclusion. Why weren't they followed? He offers us some of his views on why they were not followed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

A brief one.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Do you think someone should be held accountable? If so, who do you think should be held accountable?

[Anne McLellan]

Obviously, in government, transparency and accountability are very important. That's why we asked Mr. Justice O'Connor to do what he did. If mistakes are made, then there has to be accountability for those mistakes. But I don't think we should live in a world where accountability always means someone gets fired. In fact, I think that's a very immature view of accountability. In some cases, it may mean that someone gets fired, and fair enough. In other cases, it may mean something else. It may mean you change the procedures that you had in place that led to the mistake, to make sure that it doesn't happen again.

It's my understanding that this is in fact what the force has done. Commissioner Zaccardelli testified to that effect, that he has taken up the recommendations of O'Connor in terms of centralizing a clearing house for the sharing of information, both domestic and foreign, and so on.

Accountability is key. Accountability takes very many forms, and we have to get past the notion that heads must roll to have accountability. Sometimes maybe they should. In other cases, it will be something else that is perhaps more important in terms of the culture of that organization.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go over to the government side. Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Ms. McLellan, for being here.

I have some serious concerns about the fact that the whole focus seems to be to blame officials for whatever went wrong. I would suggest to you—and I think you would probably concur—that your role and the cabinet's role in government is to provide governance to those agencies that report upwards to us, right?

While that was going on, obviously there was a lot of press and there must have been some discussions within cabinet. I look to my friend Mr. Cotler across the table. He's a learned individual. He was the Minister of Justice. You had lots of people at that table who could have raised questions and provided questions to you that should have gone back down to the officials we're now criticizing. Did that ever occur?

[Anne McLellan]

There were general discussions at cabinet. As I say, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Bill Graham, would update colleagues in terms of a wide range of issues. Clearly there was concern around how Mr. Arar ended up in Syria and the efforts being made to get him back.

Keep in mind that when I became minister, I was given a clear mandate from Prime Minister Martin: “I want you to get to the bottom of what happened.” We immediately set about determining the best process to put in place to get to the bottom of the matter. I'm very proud to say that we put Mr. Justice O'Connor in place, and I believe we got to the bottom of this matter to greatest extent possible.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I wouldn't want to debate that issue, but it would seem to me that in the position you were in, given that the press was reporting what they were reporting, whether it was accurate or factual or not, given issues surrounding the leaks, given all of the concerns that we're now hearing, and given the indignant approach that has been taken toward the authorities—the RCMP, CSIS, and others—someone should have been telling you to ask the commissioner and to ask these people where the leaks were, whether there was any truth in these matters, and what you needed to do to go forward. Without getting into the areas that Mr. O'Connor ultimately got into, in that whole timeframe there had to be questions that were coming forward.

[Anne McLellan]

There were serious questions about the leaks. In fact, that's why investigations were begun. I believe PCO began one, the RCMP began one, and CSIS began one into the leaks. In fact, as I say, that was a concern of mine, where these leaks were coming from, because in fact these leaks could be very damaging to Mr. Arar and they could be very damaging to the credibility of our law enforcement and intelligence agencies. That's why those investigations were begun.

At the end of the day, though, I think by the time Mr. Martin became Prime Minister and I became Minister of Public Safety, we had determined that there was sufficient murkiness in terms of the stuff that was in the papers, the fact that people couldn't find out where the leaks were—

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

But did we ask those officials what information they had passed to the Americans? That seems to be the crucial issue. If nobody ever asked what information they passed, how could we make decisions on whether or not the Americans acted on our information or they acted on information that they already held?

[Anne McLellan]

As far as I remember, in the briefings I had, I was clearly told that information was shared and that the information was in relation to Mr. Arar. As I say, however, to the best of my remembrance, he was never described as an Islamic extremist to me.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

But that's a briefing. Did you ask the question: Did we provide—

[Anne McLellan]

Why would I ask, “Did you describe Mr. Arar as an Islamic extremist?” No, I wouldn't do that.