Public Safety Committee on Feb. 1st, 2007

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

On re-certification, would you know if it is currently being done at the Ontario Police College?

[Barbara George]

No, I wouldn't have that information.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Fair enough.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay.

Mr. Cullen, you're taking Mr. Cotler's place, are you?

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This is really a question that should be directed to Mr. Day, but I'm going to throw it out to the witnesses if you have any answers.

Mr. Bourduas, you said--and I think we'd all agree--that arming the border guards won't reduce the number of people who want to run guns or drugs across our borders. The deterrent effect will be minimal, at best, and I think these are serious problems. As Mr. Jolicoeur and others well know, the government did have different options apart from arming the border guards; this government chose to go with this particular option, but if the deterrence effect is minimal or zero and the people at the border, as Mr. Jolicoeur has said, will not be asked to interdict, apart from the border people having guns and being reclassified--I think Mr. Jolicoeur said he was going to put them in with his own scheme--there's an implicit cost somewhere within that classification scheme, because if you're carrying a gun, you're going to be entitled to more pay. Whether it's a new scheme or otherwise, there is an actual cost to that.

I don't know what the benefit is whatsoever of arming the guards. If it's going to result in the border people not withdrawing their services less, and if that seems to be the only benefit coming out of this, it's a very high cost to pay for that kind of benefit. I don't know; has any cost-benefit study been done on this?

Second, I'd like to come back to my colleague's question about summer students. Will they be armed as well?

[Alain Jolicoeur]

I'll take the last one, which is obviously addressed to us.

We will change our policy on summer students. As you know, CBSA is a big organization. We are about 13,000 people. We have more than 1,000 points of service and we are using students in very many situations, but we will use fewer. At some points we will use no students to do the work of our border service officers at the land border. We have been doing that in the past; that will not continue. We will do it certainly in airports and other locations where we provide other services, but there will be a reduction at the land border.

[D/Commr Pierre-Yves Bourduas]

On the issue of deterrence, it remains to be determined whether it will be a deterrent. It would be purely speculative on my part to say at this point whether or not it will be a deterrent. What I can tell you, though, is that the RCMP is working jointly with border safety officers in these integrated border enforcement teams to detect criminality taking place on both sides of the border and doing a timely intervention along the border or at the border points. We are working together with our CBSA partners.

With regard to the arming issue, it is, as I indicated earlier, simply to protect people who are protecting citizens. That's a government decision, and we'll support the government's decisions.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Perhaps I can ask a quick question.

Are you aware, Mr. Jolicoeur, of which countries around the world arm their border guards, other than the United States?

[Alain Jolicoeur]

We did a study. I don't if Barbara remembers the—

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

If you don't have it now, you can send it in. That's fine.

[Barbara Hébert]

Mr. Chair, I know there are other organizations that do arm their border officers; I know there are some that do not.

I apologize, but I don't remember off the top of my head.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Could you send that in?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Yes, if you can locate that information for us, you can send it to me and I can distribute it to the committee.

[Barbara Hébert]

I will forward that.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Has any cost-benefit study been done on this initiative? Could that be made available as well to the committee?

[Alain Jolicoeur]

No, I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, the analyses that were done on this initiative were done in the context of preparing the federal budget. They are basically advice to government, and we don't have what you are looking for.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

In relation to that, have you not done a study and survey of the border guards as to how many of them wanted to have those arms? Somebody mentioned this. Do you have that available for us?

[Alain Jolicoeur]

Yes, and I believe that actually the union has commissioned Northgate to do that. I believe they will be one of your witnesses next week.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay.

I took some of your time. Are you finished?

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I'm fine, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay.

Our final questioner is Mr. Hawn.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses.

Mr. Jolicoeur, ModuSpec has declined to appear at this committee. Did the Senate committee conclude that the Moduspec report was altered by deleting the armed presence requirement?

[Alain Jolicoeur]

The Senate committee concluded—I don't know the exact words they used—that in an earlier version of the Moduspec report there was reference to...I think it's arming at the sixth biggest port of entry, in a draft version of their report. In their final report they didn't recommend that.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Did the Senate conclude that their report had been altered?

[Alain Jolicoeur]

That may be the word they used. It's certainly not the one I would use, although I was not there.