Evidence of meeting #28 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
You spoke of not having officers shoot, I think, at persons running the port. Why have you forbidden officers to pursue port runners pursuant to their authority under the Customs Act?
12:45 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
First of all, with regard to the policy we are developing about when and how to use firearms in different situations, this one about port runners is basically modelled after what they are doing in the United States. For security reasons they don't allow their employees to do that.
In Canada, at the moment the responsibility outside the specific location of the port of entry is with the RCMP. We don't have the mandate or the authority to move away from our location for that purpose.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
To the RCMP, you talked about gun running not being deterred by armed CBSA, in your professional opinion. As you said, nobody can tell that for sure. But would it potentially have the effect of funnelling cross-border gun running away from border points to areas—across the St. Lawrence River, for example—that might be more easily controlled and concentrated on, then, by other forces such as the RCMP?
12:45 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Federal Services and Central Region, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Organized crime readjusts quite rapidly to a changing environment, very much as business does, and therefore they'll adjust when seeing whether customs officers will indeed intervene or not. They'll adjust. Our intelligence has clearly told us that could be the case.
I'd just like to go back to Mr. Jolicoeur's latest comments in relation to police jurisdiction. The RCMP at times would be the first responder, but also there are other police jurisdictions, such as the OPP or municipal police forces, that would intervene in the case of running the ports.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Mr. Jolicoeur, we talked about the number of officers who may or may not be armed, and we haven't really talked about airports. That's an area of concern to me in Edmonton, because the international airport, like a lot of airports in Canada, is very big.
The RCMP is on site, but they're in the terminal. The CBSA folks operate up to two or three miles away; at the moment, sometimes alone, and certainly unarmed.
My understanding is that there's no current move to arm those people because of the perception of RCMP presence. Is that true?
12:45 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
The plan at the moment is not to arm our officers in airports. Again, as with the timing, the options that were presented to the government included the whole organization or part of the organization.
The decision that was made was not to arm people in airports, basically because, contrary to what's happening at the land border, we have advance information now in our system on every person who comes to us. We do risk analysis on them. Also, most of them would have been screened by the equivalent of our CATSA; that is, before boarding an aircraft, they go through that.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Are you aware of the frequency of incidents—and I'll just pick Edmonton, for example—where flight-planned aircraft come in, are handled at considerable distance from the main terminal, and have been found to have contraband material, or have people who are in fact not who they said they were?
12:45 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I don't know the numbers for Edmonton, but I am aware that the situation I'm describing is not exactly like this everywhere. But the decision was made on the basis of the fact that by and large—it's not even close—security and safety are higher in airports for our employees than at the land border.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Are you aware that some of your employees may disagree with that?
12:45 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
Yes, I am. But the decision was taken that it was to be done at the land border.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Do you see any limiting of posting options? You're going to have under the current plan some people trained and some people not trained. Is there any concern about that limiting the posting and career options for CBSA members in general?
12:45 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
There's no question that from a management perspective it's more difficult for us to do it in an environment where they are not under the same regime. The fact that the time horizon is longer than we had thought it would be gives us a bit more flexibility to move people and train people. But one cannot escape that it's a lot more difficult to manage an organization when you have two separate sets of rules.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
You talked about your turnover rate of 12% and the CBSA folks probably being actively recruited by other paramilitary forces. Do you see an increase in that, given that they will now have some extra qualification?
12:50 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
There could be; this is something we have to worry about. Of course, as I said earlier, this is certainly one point that will be discussed at the table when collective bargaining starts this coming spring. But by and large, if you have more similar conditions, and differences in benefits or salary, there could be some pressure.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you very much.
I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for the testimony you've given us here today. We appreciate your patience with the time as well.
We're going to briefly suspend the meeting. We'll have to continue with future business, but we'll give our witnesses a chance to vacate the table.
Thank you very much.
[Proceedings continue in camera]