Evidence of meeting #49 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was person.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Superintendent Derek R. Ogden  Chief Superintendent and Director General, Drugs and Organized Crime, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Carl Busson  Superintendent, Officer in charge, Drugs and Organized Crime, ''E'' Division, BC, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Erin McKey  Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
David Bird  Counsel, RCMP Legal Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Acting Chair  Mr. John Williams
Linda L. Savoie  Director, Access to Information, Privacy and Reconsideration, Executive Services, Department of Transport
Brion Brandt  Director, Security Policy, Department of Transport

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I'd like to call this meeting to order. This is the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. This is meeting number 49.

For the first part of the meeting today, we are going to study the review of the witness protection program.

I will have to ask the cameras to leave. This is going to be recorded, but no cameras are allowed in here.

We have with us today, from the Department of Justice, Erin McKey, senior counsel in the criminal law policy division; from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Chief Superintendent Derek Ogden, a director general; from RCMP legal services, David Bird, counsel; and we have Superintendent Carl Busson, officer in charge of the drugs and organized crime division.

Welcome, everyone, to our committee. We look forward to your testimony.

I believe only Chief Superintendent Ogden has an opening statement. Is that right? Anytime you're ready, sir, you may go ahead. You have approximately ten minutes. If you need a little more than that, just let us know.

10:30 a.m.

Chief Superintendent Derek R. Ogden Chief Superintendent and Director General, Drugs and Organized Crime, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Thank you. I'll be very brief.

Good morning. It's my pleasure to appear before you again today. As you're aware, I'm the director general of the drugs and organized crime program for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. As such, I oversee the source witness protection program as administered by the RCMP.

Today I would also like to introduce Superintendent Carl Busson. He's the officer in charge of the drug program in the province of British Columbia for the RCMP.

The witness protection program currently has approximately 1,000 protectees. Of these, approximately 700 are from RCMP cases, while approximately 300 are assistance cases to other law enforcement agencies.

I want to stress that none of these protectees has the benefit of immunity should he or she go on to commit further criminal offences. In fact, paragraph 8(b) of the Witness Protection Program Act clearly stipulates that as a condition of protection agreement, a protectee shall refrain from activities that constitute an offence against an act of Parliament. In addition, protectees are warned about committing criminal offences during the screening process, and they also have to sign protection agreements where these stipulations and undertakings are fully documented and outlined.

That said, it would be unrealistic to expect that none of the protectees would go on to commit further criminal offences. In fact, between April 1, 2004, and April 1, 2007, nine of the 1,000 protectees were terminated for commission of criminal offences. When a protectee has committed, or is suspected of committing, a criminal offence, the criminal investigation is pursued by the enforcement agency of jurisdiction.

In addition, it should be understood that all protectees retain their past criminal record. All protectees are subject to prosecution for the commission of criminal offences, and courts of criminal jurisdiction are provided with a protectee's criminal record for their consideration. Essentially, protectees are treated under the criminal justice system like any other Canadian citizen.

As the administrator of the current national program, I can advise you that we are constantly reviewing the program in an effort to provide program improvements. These efforts include both on-site reviews of individual witness protection sites and cases, as well as updates to the various courses we offer in the area of human source training and source witness protection. I welcome this opportunity to discuss how the program could be made better to serve the needs of Canadians as well as of all law enforcement agencies in Canada.

Thank you very much.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you.

Does no one else have a statement?

The usual practice here, as you know, is to go to the official opposition first of all for a seven-minute round of questions and answers. After the three opposition parties are done, we'll move over to the government side for questions.

The first person on my list is Ms. Barnes.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Thank you very much, Chair. I'm glad to see you back here again.

I would like to go to Mr. Busson. There was supposed to be a review taking place on an incident in B.C. that had been the subject matter of part of the hearings here. Where are you in that internal review?

10:35 a.m.

Superintendent Carl Busson Superintendent, Officer in charge, Drugs and Organized Crime, ''E'' Division, BC, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

That review has been completed.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Okay. Has it--

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Is that report available?

10:35 a.m.

Supt Carl Busson

I believe it is. I think there was a question raised about it yesterday. There is some editing that had to be done to the report, but I understand that a copy is going to be supplied.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

My information was that it was not ready yet.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

I asked the clerk yesterday specifically to check with you, because I had not received anything in my office. We had been advised we'd be able to see it, I believe. The clerk advised me that she did contact you, and that it was not ready. Now you're saying it is ready. When was it ready?

10:35 a.m.

Supt Carl Busson

The investigation is completed. I don't believe the report to be given to you people is ready. I wasn't made aware until yesterday that you were looking for a copy of it.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

I think part of the intention was to have you here after we had taken a look at whatever it was that was being provided to us. Maybe that will be an ongoing thing that we'll have to do, then.

Turning to the legal services—and I'd like to hear both from legal services at the justice department and for the RCMP—I would like to go over your understanding of the provisions that do or do not enable the commissioner to release the identity in certain circumstances. I would like you to be specific to the RCMP Act, please.

We'll start with Ms. McKey from the RCMP.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I believe you're referring to the Witness Protection Program Act, not the RCMP Act.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Yes, it's the Witness Protection Program Act that, I think, is the subject of today's hearings, the act you're here to discuss.

Thank you.

10:35 a.m.

Erin McKey Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

The provision would be section 11 of the Witness Protection Program Act, but I'd think you would be probably best served by hearing from my colleague Mr. Bird at RCMP legal services, who is the expert on the act itself.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

I would like an answer from both.

Very well. We'll start with Mr. Bird. I want this for the record, please.

10:35 a.m.

David Bird Counsel, RCMP Legal Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Yes. Thank you.

I would direct your attention to section 11 of the Witness Protection Program Act. That is the one that makes it an offence to knowingly disclose the identity or information about the location of a protectee or former protectee. The exceptions in it are set out so that the RCMP commissioner herself could only disclose information that's not permitted, by virtue of that section, which deals with the administration of the Witness Protection Program Act—actually, steps that would be taken to provide protection to the protectee, which would have to be done to provide it.... Where information is going to be disclosed that is potentially outside that mandate, that would put the protectee or another witness at risk or affect the integrity of the program, the commissioner must go through a series of considerations and steps.

The information in section 12 has to be provided to the commissioner before the commissioner can personally make a decision. The first question in section 12 is, “What are the reasons for the disclosure?” The authority has to relate to the exceptions in subsection 11(3) of the Witness Protection Program Act, which allows the commissioner to disclose it with the consent—that's a case where it's possible that the protectee or former protectee may consent to it.

If there's no consent, then you are into paragraph 11(3)(b), where you may have the protectee acting in a manner that results in disclosure. That's a question of the protectee's behaviour. An example of that may be where they become involved a criminal offence and it has come out as a result of that and there being a further requirement for information to be disclosed about that person.

It doesn't really make much difference whether it is that or the other exceptions in the public interest in paragraph 11(3)(c) that apply, where there's a public interest to be considered. There are examples of those public interests there. It's not limited to those, because it says “such as”, but the commissioner has to be concerned that it is in the public interest.

Both paragraphs 11(3)(b) and 11(3)(c) require that all the procedural steps be taken to allow the commissioner, in subsection 11(5), to also make sure that the person has a reasonable opportunity to make representations concerning the matter.

So there are a number of procedural steps that have to be taken as well—I would bring that to your attention—before the commissioner could exercise any public interest or determine that the person has acted in a way that results in disclosure.

Following in section 12, in paragraph (b), the commissioner must consider the danger or adverse consequences of the disclosure in relation to the person and the integrity of the program. There has to be some consideration of that.

There has to be, in paragraph 12(c), a consideration of “the likelihood that the information will be used solely for the purpose for which the disclosure is made”, which is an obvious intent of Parliament to take steps to make disclosure only to persons who would have a direct interest, and there must be some consideration of trying to limit the further disclosure of the information.

Section 12 in paragraph (d) requires the commissioner to consider “whether the need for the disclosure can be effectively met by another means”.

Finally, in paragraph (e) of section 12, there has to be a consideration of “whether there are effective means available to prevent further disclosure of the information”.

So the commissioner starts with those obligations, then goes back to the reasons, which are going to be before the commissioner, that would convince her that it's in the public interest.

Assuming the notice is given to the affected person--either a protectee or a former protectee--that person has the right to a hearing. The commissioner must consider those representations and finally make a decision. That decision would be a decision of a federal body, which means the commissioner's decision would be reviewable in Federal Court. The grounds of judicial review for a decision of a federal body or board is in the Federal Courts Act.

The grounds for judicial review in relation to that person would be similar: the commissioner acted without jurisdiction; the commissioner failed to observe a principle of natural justice--and I believe you heard evidence about that in another matter; he or she erred in law in making a decision with respect to the order; he or she based the decision on an erroneous finding of fact, or acted in a perverse or capricious way with regard to the material before him or her. The other grounds are that the commissioner acted or failed to act by reason of fraud or perjured evidence; and finally, that the commissioner acted in any other way that was contrary to law.

With respect to the identity or location of a protectee, in my view there is a high onus on the commissioner with respect to determining that something is in the public interest to disclose. The commissioner cannot delegate that decision. It's related to the commissioner, personally. Parliament obviously intended for this to be at the highest level of the RCMP. The commissioner must address his or her mind to all of these factors, follow all of these rules, and follow these procedural safeguards before coming to the conclusion that disclosure is in the public interest.

In my view, Parliament has set up the Witness Protection Program Act to protect the protectee and former protectees from disclosure by the police, except in the most serious cases. Before such steps are taken, the primary consideration must be for the benefit of people in the witness protection program, security of their lives and those related to them.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much.

We're way over time.

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Can I ask one more quick question?

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

You're three minutes over, Sue.

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Okay, fine. There will be more minutes....

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

It's just not fair to everybody else. You will have another opportunity.

Monsieur Ménard, please, for seven minutes.

10:45 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First, while I'm always happy to hear that it doesn't show, I did start practising criminal law in Montreal in 1966, on the Crown's side, and later on the defence side most of the time, until I went into politics in 1993. At the time, there were no witness protection programs. I saw them come into being unofficially. And I have particularly seen them improve in terms of reliability, transparency and effectiveness.

I remember that at the time in Quebec there was a report by Mr. Justice Guy Guérin, which set out what type of written arrangements there should be with these individuals who had a criminal past but who were prepared to testify against others so that we could get a conviction. I very much appreciated the fact that the agreements were in writing, but I had some experience with the system when things were more or less improvised. Things were left entirely to the discretion of police officers. The arrangement was hidden and operated using police funds. There is no doubt that the current situation is much better.

This is an extremely difficult subject. The people with whom you have to work have a criminal past, and they have criminal tendencies as well. These people are not always reliable, almost by definition. I understand that it is difficult to develop a perfect system that is effective while controlling these people at the same time.

I think you have some experience running the program now. Do you have any suggestions for us as to how it could be improved? I think that if you are quite succinct, I will mention some of the improvements that have been suggested to us and ask for your opinion on them.

10:45 a.m.

C/Supt Derek R. Ogden

I thank you for your comments.

Yes, you're very correct that it's a high-risk program. And we know that we're not going to develop a perfect system.

One area where we have spent a lot of time is training, especially since 2003. We now have a complete training package on human source development and human source handling. It starts with an eight-hour Internet course that everybody can take at the RCMP; it's a mandatory training course now in Regina. The next step is a five- or six-day course focusing strictly on human source development. We also have a course on human source development for supervisors.

We recognize that the whole area of human source development is important; we have to have people who are trained and who understand that when somebody brings us information, we have to take independent steps on our own to corroborate the material being brought in. We have to have some method to evaluate the information that's being provided to us.

I think we've been quite proactive and have had an awful lot of strong partnerships across the country. We have presented our courses in the provinces of Quebec and Ontario. In Alberta they have essentially adopted the course, and our delivery net as such, exactly as we have written it. I know that in Quebec we work very closely with the people who manage the internal program in that province, and they also put a lot of focus on the intake, on the assessment, and on the protection agreement.

So I would say that training is one area. Another area, though, where I think there's a bit of a gap—

10:50 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I apologize for interrupting, but we have relatively little time. I know what work you have done. As I said, I am aware of the problems involved in running the program. I also understand that it cannot be perfect.

Now that you have some experience with it, can you suggest to us how to improve the act or the witness protection system? I appreciate the good work you have done, but we would like to know what you could do to improve things even more, in your view.