Public Safety Committee on June 7th, 2007

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

We would be given at least that?

[Linda L. Savoie]

If you do not receive the order, my office can give you a copy.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

According to testimony we've heard, the person would still not know why he is on the list. Now, I know of three possible reasons, but even then, each one of these categories would apply.

[Linda L. Savoie]

Yes. You would be a problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you. I can't relate to your problems with a name like mine. There are never any problems of identity.

Could I ask if the witnesses would be willing to stay an extra ten minutes? I have three more people on my list who would like to ask questions. It may save you from coming back to the committee. Would that...?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Chair, with respect to my colleague, I think we might better invite these folks to come back, so that we can get a proper airing. All I'm thinking is that I hadn't asked to be put on the list, but before we finish I would like to be on the list. I'm just not sure we would get finished.

I don't have any problem; I know Mr. Williams wants to ask some questions, and he's here as a sub. I don't have any problem with the ten minutes, as long as we understand that we still may wish them to come back at a later date.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

What does the committee wish? Should we extend for ten minutes if it's okay with our witnesses?

Okay. We'll extend for ten minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

On my comments at the beginning--the dumb comment--I just want to be very clear, because there has been criticism of members of Parliament on how witnesses have been treated, that my comment was about the program, not about these two individuals. I understand they are simply doing their job. I just wanted to make that very clear to both of them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I appreciate that clarification.

Mr. Williams is next, please.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have been listening to the benign responses by the witnesses who assure us that this program is all well and working well, but I and Mr. Chan.... I have not been on your list, but I think I have been on the American list.

I don't have the benefit of this 30 days to get my name off the list. I want to understand the sovereignty jurisdiction you have and how much other countries, especially our neighbours to the south, are imposing their list and their restrictions on travel upon us as Canadians. To what extent are they telling you how to run your program?

[Brion Brandt]

They are certainly not telling us how to run our program. I'd recognize that the U.S. has a strong interest in security and a strong interest in aviation security; so do we.

I think pretty well everyone in this room knows that the Public Safety Act that gave rise to this particular program was introduced in 2002, and five years later, we're developing the program. That's to say, sir, that there has been an awful lot of discussion, an awful lot of consultation, to develop a program that meets Canadian interests.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Well, you haven't allayed my suspicions that the Americans are dictating a lot to us.

I also have a Canadian passport that indicates I'm a member of the House of Commons. I always use it for identification when I travel. I'm flying from Edmonton to Ottawa, not normally over U.S. airspace, but when they scan my passport through the passport reader, it still isn't good enough, and they have to phone in to some 24-7 department, I presume--thankfully it was operating 24-7--so I could get on a plane to travel across Canada.

I thought that as far as I could tell, it was the Americans who were dictating this issue, because when I contacted your department, you said there was nothing you could do about getting my name off the list and that I should talk to the Americans. I talked to the U.S. embassy, and they said that in six months to a year they could maybe do something about it.

That, to me, isn't good enough for Canadians flying in Canadian airspace. I need to know what you're doing to protect our Canadian sovereignty for Canadians flying in Canadian airspace. There's no problem with doing what you want to try to ensure safety, but do not let it be dictated by a foreign country when we are flying as Canadians in Canada.

What do you say?

[Brion Brandt]

We have no intention of being dictated to by anyone.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

So how do I get my name off the list, on your 30-day plan?

[Brion Brandt]

On the 30-day plan, talking about the Canadian program that comes into effect June 18, if in fact you are a person who is denied boarding--

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Almost.

[Brion Brandt]

If you're denied boarding, well, then, you have the reconsideration office. If your name closely matches someone else's name on the list, there is also a provision, through the reconsideration office, to make that information known and to include information there so that hopefully—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

But you miss my point. I did contact your office. You said there was nothing you could do; you hadn't put my name on your list, and therefore I had to talk to the Americans. The Americans said it was too bad, so sad; they'd send me a form, and maybe in six months to a year they might do something.

Now, I travel a lot, and I travel a lot in Canadian airspace. I don't see why the Americans should be dictating whether or not I get on a Canadian plane to fly across Canadian airspace.

[Brion Brandt]

The distinction there is that it wasn't our list. If you were on a list, it was probably the U.S. no-fly list. We don't tell them who goes on their list.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

But you use it for Canadian passengers in Canadian airspace.

[Brion Brandt]

We do not use that. If an air carrier applied the U.S. no-fly list for domestic reasons, we would strongly discourage them from doing that.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Well, if you're from Transport Canada, I think you should be explaining to the air carriers that when it comes to Canadian law, Canadian citizens, Canadian airspace, it is the Canadian rules that apply and not anybody else's.

[Brion Brandt]

We've had those conversations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

I have two more people on my list, starting with Mr. Cullen. Mr. Chan will follow.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Unlike some of my colleagues, I'm a big supporter of this program. I'm not sure it's going to be as quite as useful as the gun registry program, but I think it's probably ranking up there in terms of protecting Canadians.

The reality is that air carriers are using all sorts of lists. In the absence of our own list in Canada, they're using the U.S. no-fly list. On June 18 we'll have our own list. Frankly, the U.S. no-fly list was fraught with errors. We all know that. In my previous life on the other side, we helped people get off the lists. It didn't take six months. We had to go through the U.S. departments of transport and homeland security and we got a lot of people off the list. There'll be some of that on the Canadian list.

I have some other questions. First, are carriers coming into Canada or leaving from Canada obligated to use this Canadian passenger protect list? In other words, it's not an option, not a tool; it's a mandated requirement.