Evidence of meeting #49 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was person.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Superintendent Derek R. Ogden  Chief Superintendent and Director General, Drugs and Organized Crime, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Carl Busson  Superintendent, Officer in charge, Drugs and Organized Crime, ''E'' Division, BC, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Erin McKey  Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
David Bird  Counsel, RCMP Legal Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Acting Chair  Mr. John Williams
Linda L. Savoie  Director, Access to Information, Privacy and Reconsideration, Executive Services, Department of Transport
Brion Brandt  Director, Security Policy, Department of Transport

10:50 a.m.

C/Supt Derek R. Ogden

One area I see as a gap is that there are, as you are aware, quite a number of cases brought in under the Witness Protection Program Act where we're actually assisting other law enforcement agencies. We essentially can't ensure any consistency in that across the board or control what takes place with an individual up to that point.

The other thing that can cause us problems is that when we reach the termination process, there may be gaps and we may not be fully aware of why a person was terminated or aware if the termination was done in what we would feel to be in an equitable manner.

What can happen is that we'll see cases come in as assistance cases, and we will essentially have to take them on because they do meet the section 7 criteria of the act. So these people are provided secure identification and are made part of the witness protection program.

We take on all of that risk in the federal program without having any of the checks and balances in place. So if something goes wrong and the local program decides to terminate the person, we're left owning that person. When we look at any of the civil cases and stuff that arise around that, the first area they look to is the federal government side. That's one area where we see a bit of a gap.

In my mind, the best possible world would be to have an integrated national source witness protection program, where many different police agencies participate side by side and there is one program, rather than various versions of programs running across the country. Then I think you'd move closer to having a guarantee of really good consistency, and you'd know that the people doing the screening were all trained the same way and that the people doing the assessments and handling the moves were doing it the same way, and there will be much more exposure to those handling agents or to the high-risk protectees.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Just a brief supplementary question, if you have one.

10:50 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

If I understand you correctly, you would like the legislation to apply to all police forces. At the moment, it applies to the RCMP only. You could also have an agreement with an attorney general, but unless he agrees to follow the same rules—and in theory—the provinces are not required to follow them.

10:50 a.m.

C/Supt Derek R. Ogden

You're right. The difficulty is that there's only one agency in the country that can provide secure documentation, and that comes under the Witness Protection Program Act, the federal act, and it's the RCMP that looks after securing the secure identification. In the process right now, when these other agencies choose to actually move somebody with a secure identification, they're forced, basically, to come into the program.

I guess there are a few different options. One would be to amend the act and to allow the RCMP to obtain secure documentation for these other agencies, but we would not have responsibility, essentially, for those cases. So there would be a clause that would say you're allowed to provide this secure identification; however, the person doesn't technically come under the act.

The problem with that, of course, is that when you look back to why the act was originally created, the act was created to protect the witnesses, and they wanted to have a structured program that would bring witnesses under the full protection of the act. One of the key areas of protection under the Witness Protection Program Act is the disclosure side, and that's the only act, of course, that has addressed disclosure and said that it's a criminal offence to disclose.

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Okay. Thank you.

We'll now go over to Mr. Comartin, please.

June 7th, 2007 / 10:55 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Superintendent Busson, if I understood what you answered in response to Ms. Barnes's question, there is a written report of the review that was done on the Young case in existence at this time.

10:55 a.m.

Supt Carl Busson

That's correct.

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

That's being edited by whom?

10:55 a.m.

C/Supt Derek R. Ogden

I expect our office will probably have the final edit on that, but I do want to....

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

No, I'm sorry, Superintendent Ogden. You don't know that yourself?

10:55 a.m.

C/Supt Derek R. Ogden

I'll have the decision-making for the final edit on that.

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Have you seen the report?

10:55 a.m.

C/Supt Derek R. Ogden

Yes, I reviewed the report yesterday and I spoke to Superintendent Busson about it. Essentially, there should be very little that's edited from the report. On my first review of the report I noticed one clause that would link old identity to new identity, so obviously we'd have to take that out. But I believe the report will be able to come pretty much intact to the committee.

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

How soon will you complete the editing?

10:55 a.m.

C/Supt Derek R. Ogden

I would suspect that we could complete that this week. Again, I want to reiterate that I've only read it once, and I would like to take some time to make sure, but I know there was one sentence in the act that caught my attention earlier in the report, and I said, “No, a person would be able to link old and new identity. We'll have to take that out.”

Other than that, the report speaks to the facts of the case, and there will be no problem in speaking about the facts of that case.

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

To one of the two of you, who prepared the report and who has seen it?

10:55 a.m.

Supt Carl Busson

It was prepared by two senior investigators out of Alberta, and it would have been seen by the senior management in British Columbia. As well, we have ordered a copy to Ottawa, so I'm sure Superintendent Ogden and other people in his area have seen it.

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Superintendent Ogden, other than your reviewing and making the minor edits, will Mr. Bird and Ms. McKey see it, or will there be other legal counsel who will look at it before the committee is allowed to see it?

10:55 a.m.

C/Supt Derek R. Ogden

I would suspect that Mr. Bird would be able to see it. I'm not sure if he's read it at this point.

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Ms. McKey, have you seen it?

10:55 a.m.

Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Do you expect you will?

10:55 a.m.

Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Erin McKey

No, I don't expect that I would review it.

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Bird?

10:55 a.m.

Counsel, RCMP Legal Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

David Bird

If I'm asked, I'll review it, but it's not necessary that I would be asked to review it.