Public Safety Committee on June 7th, 2007

[C/Supt Derek R. Ogden]

That's correct, yes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Has that been considered by the RCMP?

[C/Supt Derek R. Ogden]

We have a scenario on our source witness protection course that deals with legal advice. But it doesn't specifically direct people or instruct people to go and get legal advice.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Is that still the policy of the department, or are you considering...?

[C/Supt Derek R. Ogden]

Currently it is the policy, and it wasn't until I reviewed the minutes of the testimony here that I saw that one of the key questions was concerning legal advice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You'll have to wrap it up.

[C/Supt Derek R. Ogden]

But I will say I am aware that some protectees do get legal advice, and on occasion we have dealt directly with the lawyer and the protectee when we negotiate an agreement.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I think perhaps at your last appearance here there was some discussion about what the cost of the program is. Subsequent to that, I think we had a witness questioning what the costs covered. Can you review that for us in a general sense?

[C/Supt Derek R. Ogden]

At the last meeting I committed that we would have in our next annual report a more detailed breakdown of the costs. The costs that are reflected in the annual report only relate to specific activities. I can tell you that for the cost for salaries and operating of the program—and I think we have somewhere in the neighbourhood of 34 coordinators in the program—it's approximately $5.5 million a year. Now, the costs can vary for the entire cost of the program because sometimes awards or protection measures that we have to put in place vary quite a bit between one witness and another. What I'd like to see—and I will provide it in the next report—is a more detailed breakdown of the costs so it gives a little clearer picture. When we say we “cost-recover” when we work with other law enforcement agencies, we don't bill them back for salary dollars. We just assume that cost internally. We do bill them if there's a cost. Say the apartment is $1,000 a month; then we'll send a bill back to that agency and say “You will pay that bill for us.”

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

So the breakdown, in essence, will give the whole cost, but it will show the administrative costs to run the program and then the costs to provide whatever is needed.

[C/Supt Derek R. Ogden]

The breakdown should give the committee a lot better idea of what the true costs are of operating that program.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Part of it is a comment from my side and perhaps a view of yours, but with all due respect to Ms. McKey and Mr. Bird, I think you indicated you weren't a lawyer, you were a police officer, and Mr. Norlock and I don't see that as being a problem.

But having said that, much of the criticism seems to get directed back to the agency, and perhaps unfairly. As I understand, in most dealings the police have in any of these situations, you're dealing with legislation that's been set up by lawmakers and legislators. And some of the questions asked concerning a civilian oversight body, if it says there'll be a civilian oversight body, that's what it would be, right? That's a given.

[C/Supt Derek R. Ogden]

Exactly.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Perhaps Mr. Shur is a good example. He indicated when he was here that he was a civilian and he took care of that national witness protection program. But at the same time, I think he made it clear to this committee that he did not see a separate agency within the RCMP that was trained and functioned to do that as being a program.

Maybe it's a bit of an unfair question, but what change would occur if there were a civilian oversight body, in place of Mr. Shur, that did that? If that were mandated in the legislation, would the RCMP have a problem, then, administering the other part of it, if that's what the act specifies?

[C/Supt Derek R. Ogden]

If the act specifies, at the end of the day, that there'll be civilian oversight, obviously we'll be guided by the act and we'll respond accordingly.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I think that's fair enough.

That's the end of my questioning.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

We'll move now to Mr. Chan, please.

[Raymond Chan, Liberal, Richmond, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, officers. I think your input has been very informative and appreciated. You have a different perspective of what's going on in those issues.

Over the last few sessions on this issue, I can feel, just as anybody else does, that this is a very complex matter and that what we have been hearing in these meetings from our perspective is only a small corner of the whole operation. Because the acts have been here over ten years, I feel it's time to have a thorough review of that issue.

In one of the sessions there was a gentleman from Scotland on TV. He is a professor. He was doing an overview of the whole system they operate in Scotland. To me, in order for us to be able to have a good review of the program, I would suggest we appoint someone like that to review the operations of the last ten years in confidentiality and see with this policy if there are problems in the system. Would you have any problem, based on your experience, to allow such independent criminologists or lawyers or whatever to review that system?

[C/Supt Derek R. Ogden]

I understand exactly why you would want that done, but you're still guided by the act, and the act is pretty clear on that. The act doesn't grant me the authority to say yes, you can have somebody come in and examine our files, because it doesn't allow for that.

If that's what the decision-makers and Parliament would like to see happen, then the act would have to be changed so that it's clear that somebody can come in and examine the program.

[Raymond Chan, Liberal, Richmond, BC]

In the reviewing of identity, I think that's the most critical, problematic one, to have someone in the system, but there must be some way.

For example, Mr. Bird talked about the process, the procedure for reviewing the identification. You said that in the Young case, the details have been revealed to the prosecutors and in the court. Do you have to go through such a process to do that?

[David Bird]

To the process...?

[Raymond Chan, Liberal, Richmond, BC]

Is there an appeal process where Mr. Young was able to—

[David Bird]

Yes, there was.

[Raymond Chan, Liberal, Richmond, BC]

So they went through that.