Public Safety Committee on June 7th, 2007

[Brion Brandt]

Linda may want to respond, but if there are questions about this.... I would just say that we've tried to design it so there will be a minimal number of false positives—hopefully none, but there could be some. If there are some and people are getting questions and they need information about this, they can contact the Office of Reconsideration, and that information will be readily available to people. It is available now.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

And is that the same number the public would get—and supposedly somebody will be there 24 hours a day? No?

[Linda L. Savoie]

No, that's separate. There is a 24-7 centre, which is where the carriers will be having a dialogue with Transport Canada to determine if it's a match, and so on and so forth.

My office is a regular business hours operation, where we will be helping the person put in an application and find out what the situation is. If there is an error in identity, it's not an instantaneous process.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

So say somebody is taking an overseas flight at 8 p.m. out of Toronto's Pearson International Airport, and they're phoning me at home—which they would do. Your office will be closed, you're telling me.

[Linda L. Savoie]

I am not a quick fix, for sure. We have a process where we have to examine the file and see what the issue is.

[Brion Brandt]

Just on that point of the 24-7 number, if we're talking about a situation where someone has been denied boarding—a very rare situation, I would suggest—and they contact that 24-7 number, we need to know who the person is before we can start dealing with their case, and so on and so forth. Identity has to be clear. You could have anyone phoning up that number, saying “I'm Brion Brandt, and I have an issue here.” So identity needs to be clear.

But if we have somebody saying “I'm in airport and I have a problem that needs to be dealt with”, at least the Reconsideration Office at that moment will be able to direct them to the right person, and so forth. It's not as though there they are and there's no potential for contact. It's just that we don't envision being able to resolve those issues in a reconsideration process on the spot.

The verification of identity is on the spot.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Okay.

Have you appointed all of the necessary people, the reconsideration people, to all of your panels? And if so, has there been a press release? I haven't seen one from the Minister of Public Safety or the Minister of Transport telling me who these people are.

[Linda L. Savoie]

What I have are employees. The case officers are in place.

With respect to the people we are hiring on contract, I have a pool of a dozen people, and I will identify a couple and sign a contract with them for this program specifically, because, as you'll recall, my office does two separate programs. Once the contracts are signed, we could certainly post the names of the independent advisors on our website.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Monsieur Ménard, do you have any follow-up?

[Raymond Chan, Liberal, Richmond, BC]

Mr. Chair, because of the time, I am sure that many of us have many questions. Would we be able to get the lady and gentleman back next week?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We were going to discuss that next Tuesday, but if you're here we can do that. That's something for the future business of the committee, I would submit.

[Raymond Chan, Liberal, Richmond, BC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Monsieur Roy.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a question, and I will then give the floor to my colleague Serge. Like him, I totally, or almost totally doubt the effectiveness of the list. I will tell you why, but firstly, I want to ask you a question.

Is it true that we can check on the Internet and find out immediately if our registration has been turned down?

[Brion Brandt]

Are you talking about registration on the list?

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Yes. If it's automatically refused, is this known immediately? I would be able to check on the Internet to find out if I can board a plane, and I would know immediately if I were on the passenger list, or if I am turned down.

[Brion Brandt]

There are all sorts of reasons why a document may be refused, but in those circumstances, it's really to identify—

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

This means that if I were an organization with the intention of a committing a crime, if I had three, four or five separate identities, I would just find a new one. It's as simple as that. Ultimately you are telling us that you do not provide the information you have on a specific individual. But I had the intention of committing a crime, I would only have to check on the Internet to see if all of my identities were already in the system. If this is the case, I'd only have to create a new identity that is not in the system and which will allow me to circumvent it. That's basically what the list can do right now.

[Brion Brandt]

We have seen cases of people using their own identity.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

They are rather stupid.

[Brion Brandt]

Yes, that's true. It's not a solution to all the world problems. It's really a matter of dealing with the true problem. We've already seen circumstances such as these. If one wants to falsify an identity, it is possible to do so, I agree but it requires a certain effort, and the authorities can be made aware of such actions.

To my mind, it is truly necessary to recognize that this is an additional layer of security and safety. It's not a panacea.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I wish to make a comment to complete what I was saying earlier. As a passenger, I would feel safer if I knew that all measures are taken to prevent a terrorist, should one be on board, to attempt anything.

I'd like to hear from Ms. Savoie. What can I say, or what should I say if I were on the list, for reasons unknown to me, in order to convince the authorities that I shouldn't be on the list? For example, I can name at least five reasons why I would be put on the list.

First, there are just as many Serge Ménards as there are Linda Savoies in the world, and they are not all...

In addition, for several months, I was in contact with people who were accused of exporting nuclear material to Pakistan. Even though they were acquitted, I'm convinced that the RCMP still believes that they are guilty, and that the accused simply had good lawyers.

[Voices]

Ah, ah!

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Third, I travelled to Cuba, but I went to Club Med.

Fourth, when I was a young lawyer, before there was legal aid, I defended many terrorists to provide legal assistance. The difference between legal assistance and legal aid, is that lawyers are given low fees under the legal aid system, whereas at the time, we didn't receive anything by providing legal assistance. As a young lawyer, I felt that we had a duty toward society to provided services free-of-charge.

Fifthly, I interrogated several RCMP officers over the course of my career, and many did not appreciate the experience: they are probably still upset with me.

How many reasons would I be able to give you , if I do not know why I am on the list? Wouldn't it be easier to do a quick check to see if it is the real Serge Ménard who is on the list, or if it is someone else who has the same name, etc. Did I have a professional relationship with these people?

[Linda L. Savoie]

Indeed, our entire process always begins with an identity check. Once it has been determined that we have the correct person, that the birth date matches, you will receive a copy of the order. I also receive one. Once the 24-7 centre, referred to earlier by Mr. Brandt, issues instructions to prohibit a passenger from boarding a plane, my office receives a copy. Instructions contain the reasons why you would be refused to board. Is it because of your association with terrorist groups? Is it because you have committed serious offences? There are three reasons, if I'm not mistaken, for which your name may be put on the list. You already have an idea of the type of information that you would have to provide in order to proceed with an effective review.