Public Safety Committee on June 7th, 2007

[Brion Brandt]

Yes, the process for putting someone's name on the list is articulated very clearly, publicly in terms of our having an advisory group led by Transport Canada. You're right that the information, the recommendation that goes forward, goes forward to the Minister of Transport, who will make the decision to put someone's name on the list.

The advisory group includes Transport Canada, it includes the RCMP, it includes CSIS, with advice from the Department of Justice, to look at information that comes forward about individuals, to examine that information. Really it's the RCMP and CSIS that would be the sources of that information.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Brandt, with Homeland Security in the United States being as concerned as it is about security, especially cross-border security and especially about American airspace, is this not a roundabout way of complying with Homeland Security's demands to ensure that any fly-overs coincide with the no-fly list that the Americans have, which they will enforce?

[Brion Brandt]

The key thing I can point out at the outset is that this is a Canadian program with very specific guidelines that have been made public for the types of individuals who would be included on the list. We--

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

That's fine, Mr. Brandt, but allow me to interrupt you for a moment--and I don't mean any discourtesy. Defense and Homeland Security really say you cannot fly over American airspace unless you are in compliance with their no-fly list.

Now, there are flights from Montreal, from Toronto, from Halifax, and from Vancouver that will go over American airspace. A major Canadian carrier has already said that they would rely on the American no-fly list.

What is it about the Canadian program that's different from the demands of the American no-fly list?

[Brion Brandt]

What distinguishes it, in our case, is that the Canadian program is very narrowly focused on aviation security. I accept your premise that the U.S. is concerned about aviation security. So are we in Canada. We're interested in making sure that we have a program that meets domestic needs from a Canadian point of view, but also protects Canada from flights into Canada and also respects the interests of our international partners in terms of flights from Canada. So this program will apply domestically. It will apply to flights into Canada and flights out of Canada as well.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I'm probably going to have to go on another round, but I want to go on a second series of questions in this regard, and that is the very unsatisfactory way this program has been advertised. Because now this program, as I read it, will capture all those who appear to be over the age of 12, who will have to provide documentation as to their identity. I won't bore you with the statistics or the data. You already know. But there are very few people who know that their 12- or 13- or 14-year-old now needs to have ID in order to board a plane as of June 18.

How would you address an issue that will automatically put the onus on that 13- and 14-year-old or his or her parents who may be travelling unaware that they will have to provide such documentation?

[Brion Brandt]

You're right about the application of the program to those who appear to be 12 or older. There is already a provision in place for international flights, of course, that anyone who wants to fly internationally is required to produce identification. So that is there.

In terms of publicizing the new requirement for domestic flights, some of you may have seen the public notices in the newspapers that are appearing this week. We're taking special care to work with provinces and territories and with other organizations to communicate this message. There will be a continuous public information campaign. We're encouraging everyone we can to make people aware and also recognize that there's some variability, there's likely to be some concern. So in the implementation of the program, making sure that we're taking account of that as well, so for—

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

But with all due respect, that sounds to me very much like the implementer making all the rationale—excuses, if one wants—about some of the pitfalls that everybody's going to fall into. Number one, for example, it is not very common in Canadian culture for 13- and 14-year-olds to be walking around with documentation like OHIP numbers, like SIN numbers. They're not supposed to have them at that age. But that these would be used in breach of privacy protection for ID purposes is something that for Canadian culture is so far unconscionable.

But even more importantly, if Canadians are going to provide themselves with the security of documentation that will allow them to board a plane, in the environment that currently sees tens of thousands of new applications for passports—I'm quoting one of the ministers—over the course of the last six months, how can we deal with something in such short order?

[Brion Brandt]

Well, as I say, the public information program is under way.

On your point about privacy and so forth and so on, one of the reasons why we indicated this requirement quite clearly in the regulations was to make sure that it was clear that this was a requirement. This is a precaution—not for 12-year-olds, for older people—that has been used by air carriers in many circumstances for several years now, to require that. What we're doing is recognizing that this good security practice should be encased in regulation for this program.

I recognize the challenge you're representing in terms of getting that information out, and we're doing a number of things at this point in time to make sure we get that information—

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

But your final regulations were only published on May 16. That's like three weeks. The Americans and we had received two years' notice about the requirement for passports to go over to the States, back and forth across the border, and you know the problems that has created for our passport department.

Yet three or four weeks before people will go on holidays with their family.... It's not a question any longer of simply penalizing 12-, 13-, and 14-year-olds; it's actually a question of penalizing their families, who will find out only upon arrival at the airport—unless they get their boarding pass at home, but not everybody is capable of doing that—to get a boarding pass, and they find themselves in a position of embarrassment because a 12- or 13-year-old may not be able to produce the kind of documentation that's required.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Do you have a brief response to that?

[Brion Brandt]

Just to say that we're very sensitive to that issue. And in the compliance that we will require related to this, we will be sensitive to that issue as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Monsieur Ménard.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Brandt, as the Director of Security Policy, you are probably the person in Canada best able to answer my question.

I think we are missing a very important document we need to give us some idea about how useful this program is. Has anyone done a study looking at most incidents involving air security on aircraft to try to determine whether the people involved were on a list of undesirable passengers?

[Brion Brandt]

That is a good question. It is difficult to answer with respect to past incidents. However, we have seen incidents and other circumstances and we think this list, this program will provide another layer of safety and security for the aviation system. It will not answer all the questions or solve all the problems, but it will answer the question that came up with respect to the events that occurred on September 11, 2001 and more recent events regarding the activities that were suggested by others. In my opinion, this program will be very beneficial.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Your answer to my specific question is: “Not to my knowledge”. You cannot show us a study that seriously examines whether the existence of such a list would have prevented the air security incidents that happened.

[Brion Brandt]

We have seen examples of cases where watch lists prevented potential problems. We can say—

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

That is not what we are interested in. What we are interested in are air security incidents that actually happened.

Can you give us a single example where a list of this type would have prevented such events from happening?

[Brion Brandt]

I have no study that shows that such a list would have prevented these events. As I said, we really think this will help with the security of the aviation system.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

First, I am quite sure that it is impossible to draw up a complete list, that it is impossible to make no mistake in a list of this type, mistakes that can happen both ways. Like leave off the names of some people who should be on the list, and we might include on the list the names of people who should not be there. So it works both ways.

When I look at the disadvantages you are imposing on people who should not be on the list and when I compare the harm of such a list to that caused by other security measures, I think that the list will never be perfect, will never be able to guarantee that people will be safe and secure.

What would give me the greatest security as a passenger? Would it be a list of this type, or would it rather be a focus on other procedures, such as making the cockpit secure, conducting searches, ensuring that everyone who has checked luggage and other property onboard has been properly checked?

I don't think there's any comparison between the benefits of the list and the difficulties that it could cause.

[Brion Brandt]

I can tell you that this list will only address the potential actions of very specific people. Most people are not affected by this kind of list. All the measures mentioned on your own security list are already in place, thereby adding a new layer of security to deal with any potential deficiency in these circumstances.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

In preparing your own list, do you copy the American list?

[Brion Brandt]

No, not at all, but we've already indicated that we will have discussions with the U.S. to obtain information that we review under our own established criteria to determine whether or not there are people coming from the U.S. or anywhere in the world, who may pose a risk to the aviation system.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Will you take the name of Canadians who appear on the US no-fly list, to place them on the Canadian list?

[Brion Brandt]

If I understand correctly, you are asking if we will be obtaining names of Canadians from the U.S.—