Evidence of meeting #49 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was person.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director, Security Policy, Department of Transport
I'm not directly involved in reviewing names, but it's possible to obtain the names of those people. However, as I've said, criteria published on the Internet clearly indicate the types of actions that have already been taken by people we have an interest in. If there are people, be they Canadians or other, who, following a review by CSIS, the RCMP, or Transport Canada, lead us to conclude that they truly pose a risk to our aviation system, we expect their name to be on the list.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
This is exactly the type of issue that is of concern to us. The fact that some may be on the U.S. no-fly list will be a sufficient enough reason to put them on the Canadian list.
Director, Security Policy, Department of Transport
This is not our approach. In fact, if somebody living in Canada truly poses a threat to the aviation system, one expects, I expect that CSIS or the RCMP will forward their name to our advisory group, as a first measure. I imagine that if there are such people, this information will already be available to the Canadian authorities.
Conservative
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
This program is just so dumb that I'm almost tempted not to ask any questions.
First of all, if I understand you correctly, you're not going to be publicizing how many names are on the list.
Director, Security Policy, Department of Transport
There's no plan to publicize the numbers or names.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Can you tell us how much this plan is going to cost Canadian taxpayers?
Director, Security Policy, Department of Transport
Over a span of five years, the amount is in the neighbourhood of $13 million. We're talking about less than $3 million a year to operate the program.
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
I just want to point out to the Conservatives that's what it's costing us for the long gun registry.
One of my colleagues, Pat Martin, was on the American no-fly list. We don't know if he still is. Can you tell us whether he's on the Canadian no-fly list?
Director, Security Policy, Department of Transport
I can't tell you that because I don't have access to the list that is currently being developed. If he doesn't measure up against any of the guidelines that we've established—those three principal guidelines—I would say that he will not be on that list.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Can an individual make an inquiry as to whether their name is on the list, or do they have to be embarrassed by showing up at the airport and being turned down?
Director, Security Policy, Department of Transport
Can they make an inquiry as to whether their name is on the list? Certainly someone can make an inquiry to ask if their name is on the list. But just to be clear, sir, we don't have a plan of pre-notification to tell people who may be on the list that they are, in fact, on the list. The reason--
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
That's an interesting part. You won't send out the list to the people who are on it, because that would be a way of telling them that maybe they're part of a terrorist group and they're now under investigation. Of course, it's easy enough for that person to buy the ticket, show up at the airport, get turned down, not get on the plane, pay the cancellation fee, and find out for $50 or $75 that they're under investigation. That's how dumb this thing is.
I don't have any more questions.
Conservative
Conservative
Gord Brown Conservative Leeds—Grenville, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you to our witnesses.
I have to say that I have sympathies for what Mr. Comartin has to say, because I have a situation when I go to the United States where my name is on some list. There's some bad actor in a part of the United States who has a similar name, and I have to get special treatment. I carry a passport that indicates quite clearly that I'm a member of the House of Commons, but regardless....
I want to talk about how we can focus on those who are on this list and protect our aviation system and not inconvenience innocent travellers who are just trying to go about their business.
My understanding from the materials that I've read is that the proposed no-fly list is going to be a name-based system. Is that correct? This is a name-based system. You're not using any other way to identify people.
Director, Security Policy, Department of Transport
To make sure that we reduce the potential number of false positives as far as we possibly can, what will be provided to the air carriers for implementing the program are name, date of birth, and gender. We believe that's a limited amount of information, but it's a sufficient amount of information to distinguish beyond just someone with the same name as someone else.
Conservative
Gord Brown Conservative Leeds—Grenville, ON
Okay. The point of your system is that you're going to be relying on information that people are going to produce themselves by supplying the identification. Is that correct? You're not using any other way to identify people.
Director, Security Policy, Department of Transport
I'll try to explain how I understand your question, and respond to it.
What we'll be doing is through the advisory group. They will be examining--
Conservative
Gord Brown Conservative Leeds—Grenville, ON
No, I'm sorry, I'm trying to get at a point here. You are going to be identifying people when they show up at the airport by identification that they are going to present. Is that correct?
Director, Security Policy, Department of Transport
Yes, and we're asking people to come to the airport with identification that includes at least that sort of information. We view the number of people who will potentially be affected by this as being very limited. If someone books a ticket and so forth, and their name shows up--
Conservative
Gord Brown Conservative Leeds—Grenville, ON
All right, I understand. I'm sorry, I don't have a whole lot of time and I'm trying to get at a point here.
Do you recognize the name Abdel Nur?
Conservative
Gord Brown Conservative Leeds—Grenville, ON
He's been in the news recently. His name was connected with this alleged terrorist attack at JFK airport.
How would you deal with a guy like him if he showed up at the airport? He apparently has seven aliases and different names. He has documents from Trinidad. He has documents from Guyana. He has U.S. and Canadian passports. How would you deal with someone like that who showed up at the airport to fly?
Director, Security Policy, Department of Transport
What I was going to indicate is the information that will be provided to air carriers. If someone has multiple names, multiple spellings of names, we will try to make sure we have those and provide those to the air carrier. So the air carrier will have as much information from a name, gender, date of birth point of view--and name is of course the one you're getting at--to try to identify if someone who's trying to fly matches up with the name or any of those aliases.
