Evidence of meeting #51 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was you're.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Raymond Chan Liberal Richmond, BC
I'm trying to be diplomatic. This is nothing about ideology at all. It's how do we use common sense to catch the few, as Mr. MacKenzie has talked about--a small number of terrorists--to prevent this group, these people, from boarding a plane? If this is a small group of people, after they know there's a no-fly list, they will have to try to circumvent it. The first thing is to falsify an ID.
I'm trying to have a common sense approach to this. The set-up doesn't seem to be able to stop any professional or serious terrorist. That's one question.
The second question is this. I was in the public security committee. There's a lot of concern with this issue. This is why it has not been implemented quickly. I just wanted to put that on the record.
Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport
It was mentioned that if you put a sticker on your window, the criminal goes somewhere else. So that's one thing. Why look for trouble? We're trying to protect Canadians on flights coming to Canada; that's one point.
Another point you mentioned is falsified documents. If you're travelling internationally, there is training of airport officials—
Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport
The fact is that it's a program that spans both domestic and international. There is training in terms of falsified passports and the like. I think those are the questions.
If you are able to keep those people off our flights, that's a good thing. Sometimes they might do something somewhere else; that's a bad thing. We're the Canadian government. We're trying to protect Canadians.
On the falsified ID, it depends on who you are. The ability for you to use that to try to get somewhere as opposed to someone else....
Conservative
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Thank you.
Someone from the Ligue des droits et libertés wrote to me — I do not know whether they wrote to all M.P.s — to express certain concerns. The last one particularly caught my attention. it says, and I quote:
[TRANSLATION] The blacklist is just the first step while we wait for the even more ambitious plan announced by Transport Canada to be implemented. In that plan, the name of every traveller is put into a computer system that collects all available information on the traveller (travel and consumption patterns, acquaintances, etc.) so that a risk profile can be assigned: green, orange or red. A traveller who is given an orange or red rating is subjected to searches and additional questioning, after which he or she may simply be refused boarding.
My question is simple. Is there a plan to implement this kind of classification system for travellers, at Transport Canada?
Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport
No, not at all. Absolutely not. This is the only program. There is no other. We are working very hard on this program at present. There is no approval or plan for another system. Our priority is this system. We are not making any plans to establish another system.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Fine.
I received a letter in English. I will not take a chance at translating, because we have here the world's best professional translators.
The CLC, I believe that is the Canadian Labour Congress, but in view of who it was who wrote to me, I have some doubts about that. It is the actual argument that is important. We are told:
This list will likely contribute to even more racial and religious profiling of Arab and Muslim communities and falsely target other people. The United States “No Fly List” has resulted in more than 30,000 travellers being falsely associated with terrorism as they attempted to cross borders or board planes.
What answer do you have for the Canadian Labour Congress?
Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport
Thank you.
I should say that with this program there is no aspect of racial profiling. We object to it. I personally consider racial profiling to be repugnant and unacceptable. We are concerned about certain people who have made certain decisions in their lives.
This is our program, and we have designed it. It has nothing to do with any type of view that a group is responsible. Individuals are responsible for their actions. We're looking at their individual actions in relationship to the guidelines I mentioned.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I think you would be more convincing for the people who have expressed their concerns if instead of just saying that there will be no racial profiling, you explained what measures are being taken to ensure that there is no racial profiling.
Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport
Yes, thank you, that is good.
Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport
Yes, very well.
There are specific directives governing the activities of the people concerned. There are precise things to be done and no group is targeted: that is not what it says. We are talking solely about activities of individuals. So that is clear.
However, we can reconsider our decision. If there is racial profiling, we will investigate and we will reject the conclusion. We are doing all these things to be sure that there is no racial profiling. It is solely a matter of individuals' specific activities.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
You can have a very brief answer--just 10 or 15 seconds.
He gets five minutes, and he's only at four and a half.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Certainly aviation security concerns me, as a traveller. Then there are children, and there are also personnel, etc. I think that the first lesson we have to learn from September 11 is the need to secure the pilot's cabin. But I thought that we would also have investigated whether we could have prevented the events of September 11 by applying these lists. It seems not.
I do not understand why you are not able—
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
— that there has been no investigation to systematically examine all of the incidents to see whether applying a no-fly list would have prevented them from happening.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Mr. Kagedan, I don't know if you have an answer to that. We're way out of time.
Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport
Essentially, for all our security activities, there is a process of assessing risks and of basing judgment on the ability of a particular measure to be of assistance. We also look at actions by other countries, and so on, in this regard, as was mentioned, to try to help us in reaching those conclusions.
Conservative
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Is there in place a reporting system, through which we're going to see the results, hopefully early on, of how the system is working? Are there going to be written reports available to the public at the end of the first month, and over the next six months, and at the one-year stage? Is there that kind of system in place?
Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport
Certainly there are numerous reporting requirements. They're set down by Treasury Board for any program, and this program is no exception. There are reporting requirements. I would have to check on the degree to which they're open to the public. So we do have to do reporting.
I think Linda can answer for—
Director, Access to Information, Privacy and Reconsideration, Executive Services, Department of Transport
We have already been informed that there is going to be a privacy audit next year, and from the reconsideration point of view, we're also going to be reporting to the public the number of reviews, the outcome, etc.