Public Safety Committee on June 14th, 2007

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

The question is, if you have an Air Canada flight from Toronto to Atlanta, Georgia, and we do not have a Canadian passenger protect list, what list is Air Canada likely to use and what list would they be required to use? And the same question with respect to a flight from Paris to Toronto, Air France.

[Allan Kagedan]

You want to ask that question of Air Canada, regarding what lists they use and are required to use. What I can tell you is that they are required to address any U.S. requirements that may exist. They may have their own business requirements for that.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Okay, that's not a very good answer. But what about the flight from Paris to Toronto, Air France?

[Allan Kagedan]

Right. There would be no Canadian list.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I just finished saying there'd be no Canadian list, yes.

[Allan Kagedan]

That's right, until June 18. On June 18, there will be.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

No, but if there weren't one, what would happen today?

[Allan Kagedan]

What has happened until June 18, perhaps. No Canadian list has been applied to that flight.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Obviously you don't really know how the system works. I have another question, though.

One of the concerns we had at this committee is that CSIS and the RCMP have pretty good intelligence, but every now and then they can make a mistake. So this advisory panel.... Transport Canada is not an expert on threats to our national security--as we all know and has been discussed earlier--so they would rely, and this advisory group would rely, on information from CSIS and the RCMP and others.

So let me think of a scenario where you have someone who, for their livelihood, has to travel internationally and somehow gets on this list and cannot travel. They're going to be quite upset, right? So what recourse do they have? Someone's going to take this as a charter issue. This committee looked on behalf of the Canadian public, in the context of security certificates and the anti-terrorism legislation--the analogy is not that perfect, obviously--so there would be some independent way of assessing and corroborating the intelligence information on behalf of the defendant or a passenger who's listed, to ensure, as an honest broker if you like, that the information from CSIS and RCMP was as reliable and as cohesive as one could get it.

What have you done in that area?

[Allan Kagedan]

Linda will address the issue of reconsideration.

Again, what I would say is that we would like to inconvenience the people we're talking about, because--

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I've heard that, sir.

I'll go to Ms. Savoie. Thank you.

[Linda Savoie]

A number of resources are available to these people to correct things. My recourse, offered by the office of reconsideration, is very limited. We will look at the contents of the file to see if it was a reasonable decision and if the information in there appears to be correct. If there are some errors from an intelligence point of view, there are other recourses for individuals, directly to the RCMP--they have a complaints office there--as well as CSIS. So those are two additional recourses for a person who's been denied boarding because of intelligence information they're trying to challenge. Of course they could go to Federal Court. Obviously none of those recourses are as rapid as you'd like them to be when you're in this situation. But the person can go to a number of areas, and my office will direct them to every possible recourse.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I don't know how much time I have left, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You're out of time, I'm sorry. Do you have a brief follow-up?

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

No, that's fine, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

On Mr. Cullen's questions—and maybe you've answered this—does the airline or does CATSA check the no-fly list?

[Allan Kagedan]

Air carriers. CATSA has no involvement with the program.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

No involvement. So you've got people who are.... Are they going to receive training?

[Allan Kagedan]

Yes. First of all, a number of air carriers have been subject to U.S. requirements. So if they've been subject to U.S. requirements, then presumably they know something about how to work with the no-fly list operationally. We are providing training material to air carrier personnel, in addition to all the information we've put on the Internet, to help them work with the program, deal with everyone in it in a way that's courteous and effective, and solve problems as quickly as they possibly can.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

So the airline does the checking.

[Allan Kagedan]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

The other thing I think this committee would like to know is, if you're flying internationally, will there then be two lists that you have to check against, a Canadian list and the list of the country you're destined to go to?

[Allan Kagedan]

In other words, let's say it's a flight from the U.S. to Canada. Well, presumably the air carrier would have to check the U.S. list, but also check the Canadian one.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

And when you're in Canada and you're flying to the U.S., would you have to do the same thing?

[Allan Kagedan]

Yes, and that's internationally accepted.