Public Safety Committee on Nov. 20th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

One of the great things about living in this country is that we have some of the best police forces on the face of this good earth. I would be the last person to ever want a police force to be tarnished in any way with regard to their ability to exercise their duties, mainly because I was a police officer and I have a son who is one.

I think it is expedient on any level of government to undertake any change or action with regard to the police force under their jurisdiction, in not only addressing a current situation but any situations that may occur in the future. That having been said, there is the Brown report to come out soon and these other investigations.

I see the point where the current set-up has always been in Canada. While you were in government, and in Conservative governments before, the RCMP had the powers they have today with regard to their internal investigations. We've had many, many decades of that. All of a sudden it has become necessary to change that in a few weeks.

My suggestion is that we get the Brown report. I agree that this committee is responsible and that it has to address that. So let's have the reports. Let's wait and see what transpires within the other agencies within a reasonable amount of time, given the exigencies we currently have on this committee, and then let's do an absolutely thorough study, looking not only at police forces in Canada but at police forces around the world and how they deal with these situations.

I do agree that we are vested with that important responsibility, but I also think we're vested with a very important responsibility to make sure we have the best advice and that we do not interfere or not have the information gleaned from these other investigations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You've heard comments all around. Are you ready to decide on this?

Mr. Dosanjh.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

While you made very good points, I think the most important point is that we, federally--and this is not a partisan comment--are seen to be frozen. We have the CBSA looking at itself, and it will give a report to the minister. We have the RCMP, on tasers, looking at itself and giving a report to the minister. I just don't think that engenders the kind of confidence you've been proud of--and that I am proud of--as a former AG and the father of a cop.

I think it's incumbent on all of us to ensure we do the right thing in this case. We can't wait for the Brown report. The Brown report is about issues that are overarchingly important. This is about what happens when a person comes to the airport. What does CBSA do? How does the RCMP deal with it? What does Immigration do? What arrangements do the airports, particularly the international airports--Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, Edmonton, Winnipeg--do? This is of import to the entire country. It is the face we present to the people we invite to this country.

I think it's beyond politics. We should be undertaking the study. We don't have to jump ahead of everybody else, but we can't be saying to the world that we will sit and do nothing and wait for everybody else to tell us what they're going to do. I think we have an obligation to take the initiative and do something in a non-partisan way.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Let me make this suggestion.

I think you agreed to an extent with my proposal that we let the staff here at the table set up an agenda for us for the next couple of weeks. We can spend time at the end of any one of our sessions. Let's think about what everybody has said here. I'm trying to wrestle with what we might add to all the investigations. We would probably be calling the very same people, so I don't know what it would add, but let's think about this and maybe come back in the next session or two, at the end of one of our sessions, with a more concrete proposal as to how we want to handle this.

Everybody has made their views known now. Can I just let it sit for a while?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

We can let it sit, but I agree that we should not let it sit for a long time.

I'm wondering, too, if it isn't broader than just this committee. As the member has mentioned, there is also Immigration and perhaps Transport Canada. Maybe we need to look at how to do it right.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

From my perspective, when a committee wants to study this kind of complex subject, the majority of which falls within the jurisdiction of this committee, there is no reason that other entities would not come and give the information you need. The committee, in a sense, then can conduct itself.

I'm going to be handing this handwritten thing to the clerk. Let me just tell you what it says, and maybe I won't even have to type it. The clerk can do that for us. It reads as follows:

That this committee study the tragic death of Robert Dziekanski and invite representatives of the CBSA, RCMP, Vancouver Airport Authority, and other appropriate bodies and individuals to make presentations to that end.

That would be so that we can study it. It would include tasers and whatever you want to look at. It is important that we leave it in those general terms. The committee can then decide as we go forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay, we have that before us. We might even be able to discuss this at the next meeting, on Thursday, if we don't have the officials here.

Go ahead, Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Chair, the only thing I was going to say about Thursday is that if the researchers are available to contact the two individuals for witness protection, we'd certainly be prepared as a committee to deal with that. It's pretty short notice. We all agree with that, but if they are available, I think the committee would--

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

That was part of my suggestion--that whenever these people are available, we'll fit them in and work around Bill C-3. We're a bit flexible on Bill C-3, as long as we get Bill C-3 done before it's too late.

Do we have a consensus on this now?

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I think there is a consensus.

May I make a suggestion that you ask the staff and the clerk's office--I don't know who does what--to come up with a scheme to undertake this study? They can present it to us on Thursday in 15 or 20 minutes, in a rough way, with nothing set in concrete. In that way we can begin to look at what we're going to do. Is that appropriate?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You're talking about your motion and a proposal for how to deal with it.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

About how to go about doing what we--

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You mean how to study it--

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

There is consensus that we should do something. How do we do it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We are laying a heavy load on our staff here.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

That's all right. We all get big bucks.

[Philip Rosen]

We could do what you like, but it would be helpful if you would tell us exactly what it is you want to do. We've gleaned some of what you've had to say, but all we could say is this is a relevant witness or this is not a relevant witness. Then it's a matter of finding extra time or doing it after the new year and fitting them all in.

That's essentially your work plan right there. If you determine how many witnesses you want to hear and when you want to hear them, there's your work plan.

You've identified the relevant ministries and departments in the motion you read to us. We know who they are. It's a matter of having them come in and make statements as to what happened--not just in this instance but in dealing with similar instances in other circumstances. Other than that, I don't know what else there is to say in terms of a work plan.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

If you've given us the work plan, then let's get to work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Let me interrupt here for a minute.

They may suggest that we have a joint committee with the others, the department of transport and the department of immigration. If it doesn't impact just on this committee, are we going to have three studies in Parliament?

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

My sense is that, first of all, if this committee wants Transport Canada to come here, Transport Canada will come here. I don't think we need to draw boundaries on ourselves.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay, you'd accept that.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Are they going to investigate it?

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I doubt that very much. At least, I haven't--

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Check into it. If they're not, we won't go down that road.