Public Safety Committee on June 10th, 2008

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

That's good. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

No other comments? It's clear. Okay.

Thank you very much.

Next on our list is Mr. Mayes, please.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I just want to say to the witnesses that I appreciate the sensitivity to the individual rights of the people who are involved in this inquiry. I really appreciate the way you've handled the questions.

I just wanted to know what the appropriate response is. If the rules and procedures for handling of classified documents are broken and the PMO is notified, is the appropriate response from the PMO (1) to contact the individual who broke the security procedures; (2) to accept the resignation of the individual if the report is true; (3) to ask those responsible for those documents—the department or the ministry—to confirm the classification of the documents and also assess the severity of the breach? Would that be an appropriate response?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

I think you've covered the range of possible responses from the extreme—I suppose, a resignation—to an investigation as to the nature of the documents and the facts surrounding the “misuse,” as I think you put it, of the documents.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Would you say that if the department were to exhaust their ability to investigate the severity of the breach, the next step would likely be to engage the RCMP and ask the RCMP to assist them in that investigation?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Typically that would be the nature of the course of business, yes.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

So you haven't been asked currently to engage in that investigation?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Again, it would be inappropriate for me to comment as to whether or not we have commenced anything or are planning on commencing something.

[C/Supt Bob Paulson]

Perhaps I could add, sir, that I think it's important in terms of talking about the handling of classified material. Again, the range of activity that could occur there in terms of misconduct around that material could be in the ordinary course of business of government employee acts--negligence, inattentiveness--which doesn't hit the criminal conduct threshold, and then there is the intentional distribution, espionage-type activity at the other spectrum. So you don't always need a bulldozer to clean out your backyard, and there needs to be an assessment as to what indeed is happening and what are the circumstances that are going on there. But if there's evidence of criminality, we are obligated and duty-bound to investigate that once we have that suggestion.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Are you sharing the time, Mr. MacKenzie?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you again.

I'd just like to revisit something, and I think it's where Ms. Brown was going here.

I guess it's very difficult to determine, but security people do not necessarily know everybody in Canada who has been associated with or has been involved with organized crime or terrorist groups, or whatever. It would be a big jump in an assumption to know that members of the RCMP, who are very knowledgeable people.... It's impossible for all of them to know and recognize by face who the people are. Is that a fair assessment?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Yes, and I would not confine it only to protective officers but to any police officer, whether that officer works in the sphere of organized crime or not, to know everyone involved in that sphere of activity.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Typically, intelligence files are built by unknowns, but ultimately they go nowhere if we don't know a name and have a name to associate it with. Whether it's security or drug files, or whatever it might be, there's an awful lot of information that sits in files and nobody has a name. You can't associate it to anybody and you can't verify backwards who it is.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Sometimes that happens, yes.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

And I think it's only fair to say that's true of all police officers involved in intelligence, that to know all the names and all the people, all the players, is a virtual impossibility.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

I would agree with that, yes.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay.

My other question deals with who you report your information to. I know there have been a lot of questions, particularly in the House, about whether so-and-so knew and whether it was reported by authorities, but the RCMP reports its information to the PCO. Is that the appropriate channel for...?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

It goes from RCMP to PCO, yes.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Yes, but it's not to go around the Hill to different senior levels and report; it's to the PCO, and they then handle the information and do as they are mandated through rules and regulations to follow.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Absolutely. That's where the request originates, and that's where our response goes.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay.

How are we doing for time, Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I was distracted here. I wasn't listening. Are you just about done?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Is there somebody else?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Yes. Mr. Dosanjh had a question.