Evidence of meeting #36 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Juneau-Katsuya.
June 10th, 2008 / 4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Mr. Juneau-Katsuya, to facilitate investigations, we have, over the years, constituted in Canada what are called criminal intelligence data bases, haven't we?
Your nods aren't recorded. You'll therefore have to answer.
4:05 p.m.
Former Senior Intelligence Officer at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
Pardon me. Yes, that is the case.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Only certain police officers are authorized to consult those criminal intelligence data bases.
4:05 p.m.
Former Senior Intelligence Officer at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
It's on a need-to-know basis.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
That's correct. There are some at the RCMP, and it's available in the context of this type of investigation.
Am I to understand that these criminal intelligence data bases only concern people who have been convicted? Otherwise, do they concern all those who, for one reason or another, we think belong to a criminal organization?
4:05 p.m.
Former Senior Intelligence Officer at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
There are various data bases. Depending on the one you consult, you will get one type of information or another. For example, there is that of the Canadian Police Information Centre, or CPIC, and that of the CRPQ. Those two data bases in particular concern the convictions of people convicted of indictable offences.
4:05 p.m.
Former Senior Intelligence Officer at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
All mandated police departments can access them.
4:05 p.m.
Former Senior Intelligence Officer at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
They are much more restricted. They contain information on inter-associations, activities and other more sensitive information that the investigators need.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
What about individuals who, although they do not have a criminal record, have close relations with members of organized crime?
4:05 p.m.
Former Senior Intelligence Officer at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
Their names should normally appear in those data bases.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
In investigations on people around the minister, even about the minister's spouse, is it a complicated matter to consult those data bases?
4:05 p.m.
Former Senior Intelligence Officer at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
The system involves a little red tape, if I can put it that way. All police departments, even those that can access confidential or highly confidential information, do not necessarily have access to the data of another police department. For example, CSIS doesn't have direct access to CRPQ or to the Sûreté du Québec data bases. They have to go through liaison officers who are appointed in each of those organizations. An official request is required in order to check whether there is any information on the individuals in question that might discredit them.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
In any case, once you have those authorizations or qualifications, you need only type in the name on the keyboard. It's an automated consultation, isn't it?
4:05 p.m.
Former Senior Intelligence Officer at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
Yes, if agreements have been reached between police departments or the institutions involved.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
In recent years in Quebec, data bases have been amalgamated in the struggle against organized crime, haven't they?
4:05 p.m.
Former Senior Intelligence Officer at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
Absolutely.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Here we're talking about the RCMP, Sûreté du Québec and the Montreal police department. That moreover was the main characteristic of the Carcajou squad, wasn't it?
4:05 p.m.
Former Senior Intelligence Officer at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
Yes, but once again, access to that information is restricted to certain members who have obtained that security clearance. As I'm sure you'll understand, moles could unfortunately manage to penetrate the police systems and access information, which would undermine police investigations. Within a single police organization, access to these data bases is therefore reserved for pre-qualified individuals.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Since we have so little time, I would like you to comment on the pattern in the way Julie Couillard proceeds.
4:10 p.m.
Former Senior Intelligence Officer at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
Based on the information that appeared in the media, and strictly from a security standpoint, all the information revealed would indeed lead an investigator to take a much closer look at the situation. The ongoing relations with a number of members of organized crime inevitably pose a serious problem, particularly because the organization in question—here we're talking about the Hells Angels and their associated clubs—is a sufficiently sophisticated organization to have, in the past, triggered infiltration operations into various provincial and federal departments, even law enforcement agencies. So it's ultimately quite a sophisticated organization.
Here you see a lady who has repeated relationships with a number of members of organized crime, which in itself is highly problematical. Any investigator would take the matter much further.
The information that she herself revealed about how she approached Mr. Bernier also raises major questions. At her own initiative, she told the media that she had selected an event attended by Mr. Bernier, that she managed to be at his table that evening, that she had dined with him and that she had been nice to him all evening. She even revealed that that evening she wore the same dress that she had on at Mr. Bernier's swearing in because it showed off all her assets. They even spent a great evening together, and she said they finished off the evening at the bar in Mr. Bernier's hotel.
In my field, intelligence and police work, this is a classic recruitment operation.
