Evidence of meeting #36 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I understand that you essentially think you must tell us nothing about the individual case of Minister Bernier and his relationship with Ms. Couillard.
5 p.m.
A/Commr Raf Souccar
That's correct.
5 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
However, do you ever realize that a situation is developing in a minister's office that may present a security risk? In those cases, do you stop investigating? Do you inform the Privy Council that such a situation is developing in the minister's office?
5 p.m.
A/Commr Raf Souccar
From the moment something is brought to our attention, we start by checking to see whether that information—
5 p.m.
A/Commr Raf Souccar
—is correct or not. If the information is correct and if it continues to concern us, we communicate with the Privy Council.
5 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
You've now said that five times; we've understood.
However, let's take it for granted that you're given some information, that it is correct, and that you think, based on your investigation, that it does indeed present a security risk. Are you going to inform the Privy Council of it?
5 p.m.
A/Commr Raf Souccar
Yes, absolutely; we'll inform the Privy Council.
5 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Good. Now, if you realize that a relationship is developing in the minister's personal life that may constitute a breach of security, if you are satisfied with that information, if you have checked it in your data base, and so on, and if you are of the view that it is a security risk, will you inform the Privy Council of it?
5 p.m.
A/Commr Raf Souccar
Yes, absolutely, if we think it can cause a concern, we will inform the Privy Council.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
You're very familiar with the criminal organizations in Canada, particularly those of the bikers, aren't you?
5:05 p.m.
A/Commr Raf Souccar
Yes.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Like the witnesses who preceded you, and perhaps better than he, you are aware of the regular attempts by those organizations to place moles wherever they can. You know that, don't you?
5:05 p.m.
A/Commr Raf Souccar
Yes.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Good. If you have information that you have checked in your data bases and that you think is reliable as to whether there is a reasonable chance that a minister, perhaps without his knowledge, is starting a relationship with a mole, do you think the Privy Council should be informed of that?
5:05 p.m.
A/Commr Raf Souccar
Yes, if the situation causes concerns for us, absolutely.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Does a person who has had sustained intimate relationships with members of organized crime over a number of years present a security risk?
5:05 p.m.
A/Commr Raf Souccar
That's possible.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
If that person may come into contact with highly confidential documents in the minister's bedroom, at her home, at his home or during conversations, do you think that presents a security risk that it is worth the trouble to make the Privy Council aware of?
5:05 p.m.
A/Commr Raf Souccar
Secure documents must not be shared with anyone, whether it's a person associated with organized crime or not. If that person has no qualification to see those documents, then they must not be shared.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I read in Margaret Trudeau's book that she hated those black books that Mr. Trudeau brought home at night. As you'll understand, he must not have been the only Prime Minister who worked at home, and, as you can well imagine, a number of ministers work at home as well. Consequently, they don't always have their eyes on the documents. A mole can indeed open documents and see them.
In that sense, are you prepared, in the case of an unusual relationship, to enter that person's name in your data bases to see whether there are any reliable indications on the relationships that he or she has had with organized crime?
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
5:05 p.m.
A/Commr Raf Souccar
Once again, Mr. Ménard, if such a situation is brought to our attention and causes us concerns, we will inform the Privy Council.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you very much for coming today, gentlemen. I know you're being asked a lot of hypothetical questions about hypothetical situations so those can hypothetically be turned into advantageous political ammunition. However, I know that you will answer, and have answered, and I appreciate your answers coming forth in a very forthright manner.
The question I have to ask is based on some of the questioning at the beginning of today's proceedings and on your being here. It's on the fine line, in the job that you have, whether it be national security or just straight law enforcement, between respecting the personal lives of individuals and what I believe is referred to as “white intelligence”--that's the stuff you get out in the community from the newspapers--which can sometimes be salacious gossip from different forums.
I was listening intently when you were talking about obtaining information from various sources. I'd like you to confirm for me that some of those sources could actually be newspapers. One of those sources could actually be someone who says something to somebody who thought you should know about it. Would I be correct in saying that could be a source of information?
