Public Safety Committee on April 27th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

In 10 seconds each.

[François Damphousse]

The first measure you have to go ahead with is to block the supplies of raw materials. If you can't take action on the reserve, take action out of the reserve and hold accountable the people who are supplying those materials.

[Rob Cunningham]

Have a comprehensive strategy with a focus on targeting the unlicensed, illegal factories.

[Dave Bryans]

From the convenience association, show some leadership and bring the provinces together. You come together, all of you, and let's correct this. And finally, look at a different way of collecting tobacco taxes. We're collecting them at three different levels in this country. There might be a way to collect them at one source only and share the revenue, which would minimize some of the issues of this illegal movement of cigarettes around the country.

[Jean-Pierre Fortin]

I would say to give us the mandate, at least, to patrol the border with the RCMP and other police forces. Increase the manpower out there on the border.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

It was a good question, so I let it go over time.

I'm going to give you six minutes as well, Ms. Glover. Go ahead.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to welcome our witnesses.

I have to agree. It's not often that we agree, but Mr. Davies and I today do agree. I think a tax rollback would be devastating. I take that to heart because we all take this issue very seriously.

You and I met before, Mr. Bryans, so I'm going to follow up with some things that were discussed when we did meet, and they play right into what Mr. Davies just asked. I want you to go into some detail about how you think we should be addressing the collection of taxes and the way in which you believe your idea might help us to combat this issue.

[Dave Bryans]

Right now, tobacco is the only high government tax product that actually is allowed to be collected from different sources. Alcohol is all collected...you never even pay GST at the till. For gasoline, you just pay one price; you don't see any other taxes.

The problem with tobacco is you have excise and duty taxes at production. You have a provincial tobacco tax that is distributed at the provincial level by the tear tape colour, and then you have the HST or GST or QST, depending on the province. You have three different collection points for tobacco, and if Revenue was here, they'd tell you there are three different opportunities to avoid that tax in the delivery models, whether it be counterfeit, whether it be on and off aboriginal reserves here in Ontario, or whether it be brought in from New York State. If everybody had to pay the taxes up front, then the governments of the day could get together and divide out their share, and for sure we'd minimize at least that problem. We could start correcting all the problems that are left because of that.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Okay. That's very good. I wanted to give you an opportunity to address that, because I know you mentioned it to me when we were together.

I have a couple of comments.

I appreciate what Mr. Cunningham said about raw material.

Mr. Damphousse, you repeated exactly the same comment.

The problem with raw materials is this. When we talk about raw materials, such as the paper that's used in the production of contraband cigarettes, the paper is used for the legal production of other legal objects, such as the covers on straws at McDonalds or Tim Hortons. The same material is used to produce those. When we talk about the filter material used for the production of contraband cigarettes, we have a problem, because the filter material is also used for automotive things.

We need to be somewhat creative on how to go after the people who supply the raw material. We need to have enough evidence to proceed on any type of litigation against them or any type of arrest procedure.

I've been a police officer for 18 and a half years. I have investigated these types of cases. My frustration has always been that I could not do it alone. I was a municipal police officer, which meant I had to engage my RCMP friends at Customs and Excise to assist and collaborate before we could actually do the search warrant.

I therein believe we should look at what you suggested, Mr. Cunningham, on perhaps some legislative changes so that interception would become easier. I too have that frustration. I think what you suggested is something we could work towards.

We still have the problem that as long as there is a demand, the supply is going to grow, because it is lucrative. Organized criminals are engaged in this process, which means it is dangerous. I want to make sure today that this panel understands it is dangerous. These people are using weapons, and I'm not talking about only small-scale weapons. Very dangerous firearms are being used. Posts are being planted at different locations.

We mentioned earlier to the other panel that there's a public safety issue and a security and safety issue for officers and enforcement people. It is a huge concern. Some of the suggestions being made here today do not take that into consideration. We cannot do things simply for the benefit of profit without considering the need to be safe and secure.

Monsieur Fortin, I need you to reiterate the dangers associated with contraband tobacco. We've heard from the RCMP. We've heard from other agencies. Could you please repeat your experiences and tell us your thoughts on the dangers of this market?

[Jean-Pierre Fortin]

Thank you very much.

It is very dangerous. Again, I'm a border services agent. I can tell you that especially before the Conservative government doubled up at certain places and armed our officers, there was a policy that basically said when you see dangerous and armed folks come across the border, let them through, because you're not equipped and you cannot face that danger. They were right back then.

They've now significantly increased the level of security in those offices, but we need to increase the same level of security for what's going on right now. It's the concern I have.

You are right. Can the border services officers do it alone? No. We have to do it together. We have to do it with the help of the RCMP, QPP, and OPP. We have to work together.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I would suggest that that is an achievement. The fact is that our border officers are now armed so that they may defend themselves and others, because the general public is always at risk when organized criminals are in the vicinity of a public place.

Mr. Cunningham, I would suggest that is a move towards an achievement. It is in fact an achievement.

I understand your frustration, sir, and trust me, no one in this world wishes more than I do that we could stop people from wanting to smoke. I too have a daughter who has cancer. It's not because cigarettes were involved, but it's perhaps because the environment had an effect.

We cannot ignore the fact that some of these achievements have been made. I want to make it clear that there have been achievements. I don't agree that nothing has been done in two years.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to thank our witnesses. We didn't give you very much time, but you have given us very valuable information. I appreciate it very much. You may excuse yourselves.

Ms. Mourani, are you ready to introduce your motion? We're behind schedule, so we'll go straight in.

Go ahead.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like it to be distributed so everyone can read it. Can Mr. Préfontaine distribute copies of the motion?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Go ahead.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

The motion is very simple. It reads as follows:

That the Committee hold an additional meeting on Wednesday, April 28, 2010, from 3:30 to 5:30, and that this meeting be devoted to preparing a list of witnesses as part of the study of Bill C-391.

This is so we can continue our work and solve the little problem we had last time, Mr. Chair. It is so we can talk among ourselves and decide on a list, is all.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much. I appreciate your being so concise and precise.

Mr. MacKenzie, please.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

We certainly support Ms. Mourani's motion.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

The meeting stands adjourned.