Public Safety Committee on May 11th, 2010

[Richard Fadden]

Absolutely not; we don't need a warrant to speak to Canadians. What we need is a suspicion that leads us to believe they might present a danger to public safety. We don't have lawyers because this isn't a criminal investigation. We talk to people; we can't arrest them or put them in prison or file criminal charges against them. What we can do with them is talk to them. In those circumstances, we don't need lawyers.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I understand, Mr. Fadden. Can you target certain communities? I am told that racial profiling is done, that certain communities are targeted. Moreover, your website was in Arabic at one point. I saw it was removed. Do you do racial profiling in your analyses?

I also read another decision by a judge, Judge Montigny, who simply decided that your report was inconclusive because he found that the reliability of the searches conducted on Wikipedia and other websites was inconclusive. I asked myself the following question. We're paying half a million dollars for your services. Can we therefore expect a certain degree of professionalism on your part? If so, I'd like to know.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You will have to pose your question.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Can you conduct an investigation of Ms. Djemila Benhabib? Does she present a threat to the security of Canada, in accordance with section 12?

[Richard Fadden]

Mr. Chairman, if I remember correctly, Ms. Benhabib was under investigation for a security clearance. So the answer to your question is no.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

All right, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Fadden and Mr. Coulombe.

Mr. Fadden, in terms of getting a clearer picture of the expansion of our international role, I worked in the 2004-05 period on the committee that was looking at having parliamentary oversight of all of our intelligence services, not only what is done by SIRC. I think from all of our traditional allies, the United States, England, Australia--I wouldn't say this was public, but behind the scenes there were regular complaints from them that at the international level we were not carrying our equal weight as those allies were.

Were you aware of those types of comments from our allies at that period of time?

[Richard Fadden]

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Is that continuing today?

[Richard Fadden]

I think, Mr. Chairman, rather less than was the case. There's no doubt that Canada receives far more intelligence than it provides. I think that's probably a reflection of our size and our location, but certainly since I've been at CSIS it has struck me how much more we are producing as compared to, say, a few years ago.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

In that regard, let's jump over to finances for a minute. After 9/11, CSIS budgets were expanded substantially. Can you give us that figure, percentage-wise? Where are we by comparison to where we were in the year after 9/11?

[Richard Fadden]

Let me think. Since 2001 we have had a 72% increase in our budget.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Can you tell us how much of that would have been used in expanding what we are producing internationally, versus what is being done domestically?

[Richard Fadden]

I can't do that directly, not because I don't want to, but it's simply not how we account for what we do.

To give you a bit of a sense of where we spend our money, a large chunk of what we do on the counter-terrorism front is abroad, and something in the order of 45% of our budget goes to counter-terrorism.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Right.

My information, I think right up to the present, is that there were logical areas for us to expand into, because of where our foreign affairs people were, because of our economic interests in certain areas, particularly in South America and Africa. Without disclosing any particulars, have those two continents been particular ones in which we have expanded in the last five to seven years?

[Richard Fadden]

I think it's fair to say, Mr. Chairman, that the greatest expansions we've seen would have been in the Middle East and Africa, which is not to suggest we haven't done more elsewhere. But I was trying to answer your question.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay. In terms of coming back....

Monsieur Coulombe, je ne sais pas si vous allez répondre à ma question.

Section 12 has been used as the basis on which the expansion...but I know at one period of time, at least, there was a question as to whether that was broad enough and that in fact internally in CSIS there was some desire to get amendments to the act in order to clarify our ability to gather intelligence internationally.

Are you aware that this was a position internally at CSIS at one time, and if so, is it still today? Would you like to have an amendment with regard to section 12?

[Richard Fadden]

I'll take that, if I can. I do understand that at the time, between now and when the act was enacted, there was some discussion as to whether or not it was clear enough.

I think there's no discussion whatsoever of that now. As I was trying to say in my opening remarks, the authority to conduct security intelligence operations is not limited to Canada, in contradistinction to our foreign intelligence mandate, which is limited to Canada. So from our perspective and the perspective of our lawyers, and, as I said in my opening remarks, at the time during discussions in Parliament, it is quite clear to us now that we do have that authority.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'm not sure this would ever be possible, but have there ever been any court cases where the gathering of intelligence internationally has been challenged in Canada?

[Richard Fadden]

My understanding is no, not directly, Mr. Chairman.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

To explore the role of gathering information....

Actually, let me just pass, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Are you going to give your time over to the other side, Mr. Comartin?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. Borys is asking for my two minutes. I'd be quite happy to give them to him.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

It's now a minute and a half. Quickly, please.