Evidence of meeting #28 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fadden.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Yes, Mr. Chair, and I want to point out that CSIS has been working on that for a number of years. My predecessor did the same thing.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Were they aware that you were going to identify people without really naming them?
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies
Thank you, Madame Mourani. That is seven minutes.
Mr. Fadden, with your indulgence, I'm next on questions, and as is the custom of the committee, I'll ask my questions from the chair if that's okay.
Mr. Fadden, I want to start by repeating precisely what you said, by putting your own words to you. You said on national television that “there are several municipal politicians in British Columbia and in at least two provinces there are ministers of the crown who we think are under at least the general influence of a foreign government”.
You also said, with reference to cabinet ministers developing associations with foreign countries--and once again I'll quote--“we’re now seeing, in a couple of cases, indications that they are in fact shifting their public policies as a reflection of that involvement with that particular country”.
Sir, I would put to you that you've created great consternation and anxiety, unwarranted suspicion, and an unfounded stain on every municipal elected official in British Columbia and indeed every provincial cabinet minister in the country. Do you acknowledge that, sir?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
No, sir, I do not.
The reason I do not is that I was making a general statement about foreign interference. As I was saying a moment ago--I think it was in French--if foreign interference is to take place in this country, it has to take place with respect to people who have influence. So it should come as no surprise that it involves people who have political decision-making authority.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies
I hear you, sir.
Now, you also said today that there were no threats to the security of Canada. But I'm going to put to you two comments you made publicly. You said, “I'm making this comment because I think it's a real danger that people be totally oblivious to this kind of issue.” And you also said, “it most definitely is a serious problem”.
So I put to you, sir, that Canadians are a little bit confused about whether you think there is a serious problem with respect to politicians being under the influence of foreign governments. Is it serious or not?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I think, Mr. Chairman, that it is serious for any Canadian to be under the influence of a foreign state. And the reason I raised it, and I think the reason I was given leave to raise it, is that it's a concern that's generally shared among the security and intelligence community. It is not something that any state would welcome.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies
Well, I think that's true, Mr. Fadden.
Now I'm going to put some pretty specific questions to you, because I believe you've made very serious allegations that have tarred a large number of innocent people, and ethnic communities as well, with suspicion, and I think you have an obligation to clear the air.
Which provinces were you referring to, sir, when you made reference to two cabinet ministers?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
That would be an operational matter that I am unable to answer, Mr. Chairman.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies
Which municipality, sir, were you referring to when you referred to British Columbia municipal politicians being under the influence of foreign governments?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Again, Mr. Chairman, that is an operational matter on which I cannot comment.
NDP
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Again, Mr. Chairman, I am unable to comment.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies
Mr. Fadden, Mr. Mansbridge put this to you during your interview. He said,
...but the director of CSIS suggesting that there are politicians in this country and now public servants as well, you're suggesting without naming them, will raise a few eyebrows. In fact, ...if I was a provincial cabinet minister, I would say, “Hey, who are you talking about, because you're swiping us all with this.”
And you answered, Mr. Fadden, “Yes, I think that's fair.”
Mr. Fadden, sir, I take it that as the head of CSIS, you do not want to be unfair. That is, there is an expectation that a person in your position would be fair to Canadians. Would you agree with that?
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies
So if you think it's fair that provincial cabinet ministers and municipal politicians are unfairly swiped by being named, why won't you name the people who are truly under suspicion?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I will name them, Mr. Chairman, to the government. Under the general rubric of the CSIS Act, we are required to report to the government, and we will be doing so shortly.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies
Okay. Well, let's get to that. A major contradiction that I think Canadians feel concerns these remarks.
You said on national television: “...we just don't keep information to ourselves. In the case of the couple of cabinet ministers we are in the process of discussing with the centre how we're going to inform those provinces.”
Mansbridge: “The centre being?”
Fadden: “Sorry, the Privy Council Office. The Prime Minister's department.”
And regarding your investigation into foreign interference with municipal politicians, you stated:
They haven't really hidden their association but what surprised us is that it's been so extensive over the years and we're now seeing, in a couple of cases, indications that they are in fact shifting their public policies as a reflection of that involvement with that particular country.
Mr. Fadden, this indicates to me that CSIS has been monitoring these individuals for some time now. Would I be correct?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Mr. Chairman, that's a relatively difficult question to answer--not because I don't want to. We start with the “what”, whether or not somebody is under foreign influence--
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies
With respect, Mr. Fadden, I'm asking a “when” question. When did CSIS start monitoring these individuals, if you're finding that it's been extensive over the years and you're now seeing evidence? I just want to know approximately when you started monitoring these individuals.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I would say a couple of years ago. But again, we're monitoring the threat, not people. It takes a long time, as I said in my remarks, to get a grip on whether or not there's a real threat.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies
Then when, sir, did the information first come to your attention that two cabinet ministers and municipal politicians in British Columbia were under the general influence of foreign governments?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I was given a very general briefing in late 2009 in which the service indicated they had concerns. At the time, they had not formed a view as to whether it had met the threshold set out in the act.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies
You said that you don't keep that information to yourselves and that you're in the process of discussing it with the Privy Council Office. When did you discuss that with the Privy Council Office, sir?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I think I answered that question in response to a question from Mr. Proulx. I don't remember the exact time, but it was in early 2010.