Public Safety Committee on July 5th, 2010

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

So between March 26, 2010, and June 22, 2010, after you had made those comments, which obviously were known about, did anybody in the PMO or PCO, or the national security adviser or the minister contact you and ask for details of the concerns you had between March 26 and your June 21 and June 22 interviews?

[Richard Fadden]

No, because I do not think they were aware of them.

As I said earlier, the RCMI speech was meant to be given under the traditional Chatham House rule, but that of course varied because the CBC was there. My understanding was that the CBC did not make any of this public. So none of the individuals you listed would have been aware.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Fine.

You've had a distinguished career. A compliment given to you by Jaime Pitfield, the current deputy minister, was that you are not afraid to call it like you see it. He said you're a very serious person, a very ethical guy, extremely professional; you take responsibility seriously; you do the right thing, and, you're tough but you're fair. These are all good things about you. That's actually part of the concern, because you do indicate in a forthright manner that you are concerned that a couple of cabinet ministers--and you refer to municipal officials as well--might be under influence.

In the interview, you refered specifically to contacting and discussing with the centre how you were going to inform the provinces. Then you quite specifically defined the centre as the Privy Council Office, the Prime Minister's department, and said you were trying to get a sense of how you would best let them know the problem.... The chair already read through all of that.

But this is my question. During the interview, you justified having said this. I know you retracted part of this the next day, but you justified it and you said: “I'm making this comment because I think it's a real danger that people be totally oblivious to this kind of issue.”

So as the director of CSIS, you've had a fine career, and you actually said on national television that you think this is a real danger and people should be concerned about this. I'm not saying you are right or wrong. I don't have the information you have. I'm listening to what you're saying, and what I'm wondering is under these circumstances of the real danger, which you said on June 21 and 22 exists, has the Privy Council Office or the Prime Minister's Office or the Prime Minister or the minister or the national security adviser called you in or contacted you and said anything to the effect that you said on national television that we have a real danger here in Canada and they want to know what you're talking about? Have they said they treat this seriously, and this might be a problem, and on behalf of Canadians, they'd like you to tell them what you're talking about and whether we need to be doing anything to protect Canadians? Have they done that since this interview?

[Richard Fadden]

I've had general discussions with my minister and with the Privy Council Office about this. I indicated that the concerns that I expressed and that had been reported remained, in our view, potentially very serious. I said that we were continuing our analysis and that we would be moving the files forward very shortly.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Mr. Fadden, that wasn't my question. My question defined all of these people--the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister's Office, the Privy Council Office, the national security adviser, and Minister Toews--and asked if any of them had contacted you after your interviews and asked you to come in or speak with them and provide the information and a full explanation of what these real dangers are. Have they done their jobs and asked you to provide that information?

[Richard Fadden]

I think it's difficult to parse whether I gave them the information because it was attracting publicity or whether they asked me. But I want to be very clear that I have had a conversation with my minister and with the Privy Council Office about these cases. I've indicated that these cases remain a concern and that they would be provided with a brief very shortly.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Once again, with the greatest respect, that's not my question. My question was, since these interviews on June 21 and June 22, have any of those entities, and I'll repeat them--the Prime Minister's office, the Prime Minister, the Privy Council Office, the national security adviser, Minister Toews, or anybody on their behalf--contacted you and said, “What are these real dangers? We want a report. We want you to tell us what they are so we can do our jobs to protect Canadians”? Have they contacted you since your interviews?

[Richard Fadden]

No, because I contacted them first.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Okay. When did you contact them, who did you contact, and what did you say to them?

[Richard Fadden]

It was the minister, Mr. Toews, and the national security adviser.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

When did you contact both individuals, and what did you advise them?

[Richard Fadden]

I don't remember the exact date. It was very shortly after the interviews, I'd say a day or two.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Okay. What did you tell them, and have you put anything whatsoever in writing to any of these individuals?

[Richard Fadden]

No.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

What did you advise them?

[Richard Fadden]

I told them, as I said a moment ago, that we had a couple of cases that I had discussed and that were worrisome, that we had almost completed our analysis, and that we would be briefing them formally very shortly.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Did this contact take place before or after you issued your retraction after the interview with Mr. Mansbridge?

[Richard Fadden]

Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure I issued a retraction. To my mind, I was explaining exactly what had happened. When I spoke to Mr. Mansbridge, I was thinking of a conversation I had had with the national security adviser, and that's why I said I had spoken to someone.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Call it what you wish, whether it's a retraction or a clarification, whatever you want to call it, did this contact take place with the minister and the national security adviser before or after you issued that statement?

[Richard Fadden]

I believe it was after.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

You say that you believe. Are you sure?

[Richard Fadden]

No, or I would have said so.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Okay, thank you very much.

And can you provide the details of what you spoke of with these individuals--the minister and the national security adviser?

[Richard Fadden]

No, I may not.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

You mean you won't.