Evidence of meeting #28 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fadden.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies
So you did inform the Privy Council Office in early 2010 of this information.
11:40 a.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I told them exactly what I said earlier. I said I had a couple of cases I was worried about, that it may involve the provinces, and could I have their advice on how we would go about informing the provinces, because it's not something we've had occasion to do previously.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
11:40 a.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
The national security adviser.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies
When you said the next day, “I have not apprised the Privy Council Office of the cases I mentioned in the interview on CBC” and “...CSIS has not deemed the cases to be of sufficient concern to bring them to the attention of provincial authorities”, I take it, sir, that you had not told either the PCO or any provinces about the specific cases you raised on television. Is that what you're saying?
11:40 a.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies
I just want to talk briefly about the Chinese Canadian community, because you have named China in two of your statements. You've mentioned the Confucius Institutes in most of the campuses across Canada, and you've made references that I think have disturbed the Chinese Canadian community across this country.
I'm going to ask you, sir, do you think it's appropriate to give an apology to the Chinese Canadian community, in particular Chinese Canadian politicians, in this country for suggesting that their loyalties are suspect?
11:40 a.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
No, Mr. Chairman, I don't. I think in those very rare instances when they might be covered by the preoccupations they have, they are victims. I don't think they are the problem. I think the foreign power is the problem. And the main reason we are operating in this area is to protect Canadians from the foreign power. So I do not think an apology is necessary.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you to the panel for being here today.
Mr. Fadden, I agree that foreign activity in Canada and the rest of the western world is serious, and I agree that Canadians need to be educated about it, but that does not mean it is the job of CSIS to decide to publicize intelligence information.
I cannot find the section of the CSIS Act that gives CSIS a mandate to launch a public relations campaign to promote its intelligence findings. Can you point me to something in the act?
11:40 a.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Mr. Chairman, let me repeat. The circumstance in which all of this became public is one that I regret. I was talking, as I said, to an intelligence, police, and military audience under the Chatham House rule, and I lost track of the fact that this was being broadcast as part of an agreement we had with the CBC. So I start from the premise that this is not a desirable outcome. I think I've said that three or four times, Mr. Chairman. I do not think it is a desirable outcome.
There is no specific provision in the act that says we are authorized to operate a public relations campaign. But I would draw your attention to the fact that this is contained in no departmental or service act. It's simply part of a general undertaking we have. I would also note that we've undertaken this attempt to try to bring these matters to the attention of the public with the agreement both of my minister and of the centre.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Do you think it is CSIS's prerogative to decide what intelligence is supposed to be shared with the public?
11:40 a.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
In general terms, I think it's fair. We are required to issue an annual report. We have a website, and we try to put in here what we think we can.
We are always operating under the constraint of not being able to discuss operational detail. I appreciate that's frustrating, but there's not much we can do about it. So, generally speaking, I think when we're informing Canadians in one shape, form, or another about the problems and the threats in particular--in this case it's the threat of a foreign power unlawfully and unhelpfully influencing a Canadian--I think that's fair. Details are not fair.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
I draw your attention to section 19 of the CSIS Act. This section restricts disclosure of “Information obtained in the performance of the duties and functions of the Service under this Act”. How does that section square with your comments about the provincial cabinet ministers?
11:40 a.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Let me just have a quick look at the act. I'm sorry, I didn't know you were going to quote from it.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
I'm sorry. It does go on and it says “shall not be disclosed by the Service except in accordance with this section”.
11:40 a.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I think there is also a section in there that says the minister can either directly or using the service as an agent reveal information that is acquired.
I also believe the thrust of section 19 is not to deal with general threat or general analysis, but more specifically with operational details.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
We have a group of photographs that were posted by the Royal Canadian Military Institute, if someone could please show those to Mr. Fadden.
Would you agree, from these photos, that the cameraman was obviously filming the entire event and not just your speech? They posted a lot of photos on their website. The cameraman was fairly busy.
11:45 a.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Absolutely. I do not in the slightest deny that they were there before the speech or that they were there during the speech. My only point is I simply lost track of that during the course of my remarks.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
When you look at those photos.... I think you have described the event as an audience of police, intelligence, and military experts. Is that right, when you look at those photographs?
11:45 a.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I don't really know who was there. There were certainly some military people and there was a variety of others whom I can't identify, to be honest. But there were police there, there were a few intelligence people, and there were clearly, as the uniforms show, some military personnel.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Okay.
We also have another group of photographs taken again from the military institute's website. If you would just take a look at them, I think it's fairly obvious, but I don't think it's limited to police, intelligence, and military experts.