Public Safety Committee on Oct. 27th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

[Inaudible--Editor]

We have a choice, committee. We can take two minutes to reboot the system or we can continue.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to make sure that the people at home are able to hear as well as see, because this is an important matter we're discussing here. Those at home will know that the other side will really take a lot of good shots at the government. And from this side, from time to time we're going to respond, because this is a political arena.

Sometimes I wonder if it is the truth that we're trying to get at, but I respect this institution so much that I know every member here wants to do that. I suspect it is the same for the witnesses.

I think Mr. Small, having a senior position in government, knows that many of the comments and questions that were coming from Mr. Kania weren't designed to get an answer from him but to actually put a statement in.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

One moment, please.

My understanding is that although the red light is on, the system is not on. So I am going to suspend for a few minutes and we will reboot the system.

Please, no one leave. Just stay here. It will only take a minute or two.

We will suspend.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I want to apologize to our witnesses and to our committee today. This is one of the new committee rooms that we are dealing with here. There are still a few bugs; we're still working them out. Hopefully we'll be able to go uninterrupted.

I've been told by the opposition that they would like about five minutes at the end for notices of motion. So rather than the 15, we can give the witnesses a little more time. Is that fair?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right. Thank you, sir.

We will continue with Mr. Norlock.

Mr. Norlock, I'm just going to reset your timer. Go ahead.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. If it's okay with Mr. Holland, Mr. Chair, it's okay with me.

By the way, I'm speaking primarily to the folks at home. That's how I usually do this. That is I think the reason that this is being televised. Of course, the people at home know that this is an adversarial atmosphere, opposition and government. The opposition tries to make the government look bad; the government tries to make itself look good. That's the way it is.

In this particular case, I will deal specifically with Mr. Small. Mr. Kania's questions weren't designed to solicit that much of a response from Mr. Small but to let the people at home know his particular slant on what was said when the minister was here.

My questioning will be actually specific to the Ontario government, and in particular, Mr. Small, to yourself, in that your organization was responsible for a certain part of the incarceration of people who were arrested. Normally when someone is arrested and brought to your institution--and you can correct me if I'm wrong--they come there primarily in two ways. They come with either a remand order, which was the case, I believe, in this circumstance, or they come with a warrant of committal. In either case, you don't accept people into your institution without some kind of paperwork, I would gather. Were there remand orders or were they just verbal?

[Steven Small]

With each and every inmate admitted to our custody there was a remand warrant.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Okay. There was a piece of paper. They saw someone in the justice system in order to be able to have access to your system.

[Steven Small]

Yes, someone remanded them into custody.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Okay. This is just so we know, because for some of your questions, Mr. Small, the people at home would think that you were trying to be evasive or that you should have had the answer.

For people to know your echelon or your level of responsibility, could you explain your organization, sir, in a very quick, simplistic form? Who reports to you? And eventually, where does the buck stop?

[Steven Small]

I have four regional directors overseeing four regions within the province. Those regional directors oversee a number of institutions within a region. Each institution is administered by a superintendent. The superintendent is responsible for the operation of the particular institution. I report to the Deputy Minister of Correctional Services, and I am operationally responsible for the administration of the adult correctional institutions in Ontario.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much. So if a person had a complaint with regard to how they were being treated in an institution for which you are responsible, they should initiate a complaint to whom, sir? What is the process, in its most simplistic, quickest way of putting it?

[Steven Small]

Each individual who has a complaint can make that complaint either verbally or in writing to the superintendent, a supervisor, or any employee at the institution in which they're incarcerated. All of the complaints are reviewed, and a response is provided to the complainant as to whether the complaint was substantiated or not.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'm curious with regard to injections. You are obviously very familiar with the policies and procedures of the correctional system in the province of Ontario.

[Steven Small]

Yes.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Are you aware--by the way, I worked for the ministry for about 30 years--of any policies, other than for a person who is declared not mentally capable? In other words, people who are suffering from an illness and could harm themselves or someone else might have to be injected, under a doctor's supervision, so they can be calmed down. Are you aware of any other circumstance, in your policies and procedures, whereby a person, upon entrance into one of your institutions, would automatically be given an injection for any reason other than that it was done under the strict supervision of a doctor and under a doctor's order?

[Steven Small]

If you use the word “injection”, the answer is no. I'm not aware of that procedure, and certainly I should be aware if that's taking place. An injection? No.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Small. Thank you, Mr. Norlock.

We'll go to Madame Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Small, I would like to continue in the wake of what Mr. Norlock said.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but you said that a person could not be injected with a substance if that person was not consenting. Is that correct?

Oh, there is no translation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Reset it. There we go. Now we have that.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I didn't understand your response to Mr. Norlock. Are you saying that, if a person admitted to one of your institutions is vaccinated on arrival without his or her consent, without there being any mental disorders involved, that is not a normal procedure?

[Steven Small]

No, an injection is not usual procedure. We do testing, for example, for tuberculosis, but I'm not clear as to the nature of this injection you're referring to.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Are the tuberculosis tests administered to people placed in remand done with or without their consent?

[Steven Small]

Yes.