Public Safety Committee on Oct. 27th, 2010

[Steven Small]

We joined a working group, as I said, with representatives from the summit integrated security unit, which included Public Safety Canada, the Toronto Police Service, the Ontario Provincial Police, and others.

Beyond that, I have no comment regarding the planning.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

That's fine. But at the end of the day, this was an international summit held in Toronto, so the ultimate responsibility for the summit was with the federal government, correct?

[Steven Small]

I'm sorry, I'm not in a position to answer that. I just--

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I'll try to ask this in a different way. Do you have any information you can provide in terms of who, politically, from the federal government was responsible and who made these decisions, in terms of any of these matters that we're complaining of?

At the end of the day, it almost rests with the politicians. It's not the individual police officer on the street; it's not any of these forces. Somebody has to decide. We're the elected officials. I'm asking you if you're aware of who the elected officials were who had this power and who were exercising this power.

[Steven Small]

No, I'm not aware.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Were you involved with the planning of the summit in any way?

[Steven Small]

No.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

What was your role?

[Steven Small]

We were to receive individuals who were remanded into custody at correctional facilities.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

So in terms of your Ontario ministry, you were not involved in the planning of the security for the summit. You were simply asked to receive these individuals.

[Steven Small]

I work for the correctional services division of the Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services. In the correctional services division we administer the adult provincial correctional facilities.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

You're aware of the fact that there's a huge discrepancy in what this summit cost for security in relation to other summits. I'll use a couple of examples. The London, England, G-20 in April 2009 was $30 million and the Pittsburgh G-20 summit in September 2009 was $18 million. We've spent over $1 billion.

Can you provide any comments to us on how we got our money's worth as taxpayers for the security, in comparison?

[Steven Small]

I have no comment. I'm not aware.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

The other thing is that Minister Toews was here a couple of days ago, and we were asking him questions about why the summit was split between Huntsville and Toronto. Before I ask you the question I want you to know that from what I have read there's about a $200 million difference because of the splitting of the summit, rather than having it one location.

We asked Minister Toews why that decision was made, and he in essence said that he followed the recommendations of certain officials, but he couldn't provide any reasons to us in front of the committee. He couldn't remember anything, and he referred it to Mr. Elcock. Later on, when Mr. Elcock was asked these questions, he essentially said it was a political decision and he couldn't say anything.

I'm wondering if you and your department have any information in terms of--

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

On a point of order, Mr. Lobb.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

To be fair to the minister, that's not exactly what he said. I think Mr. Kania knows better.

He said he would refer it to Mr. Elcock and he could hear it from the horse's mouth. I think he could remember that saying. He may want to refrain from his selective memories--

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

That's not a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Just hang on, Ms. Mourani.

I would encourage all members here that if you're going to quote the minister, quote him correctly. I didn't hear him say exactly what you said. I guess I can check the blues again, but I take it as a point.

It's more of a reminder for everyone. I'm not going to make a decision on that right now, Mr. Lobb, because I don't have the blues of what Mr. Toews said.

Mr. Kania, I'm not going to take that as a point of order, so continue.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

I'll be happy to show them to you after, if you like. I have no difficulty with that.

Can you provide any information to the committee on why this additional approximately $200 million was spent to split the summits between Huntsville and Toronto? What recommendations were followed, and why was this political decision made by the Conservative government to do this?

[Steven Small]

I have no information in that regard.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

We'll move to Ms. Mourani.

Ms. Mourani, you have five minutes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to welcome all of you and to thank you as well for your evidence because I also know that it is not easy to appear here to provide this kind of testimony.

Mr. Small, it is a great pleasure to see you. I asked to have you appear here by means of a summons. I have very specific questions concerning your task and role at Maplehurst prison and Vanier prison. I really have some very specific questions.

I have met a number of individuals who spent time in your prisons, in particular Maplehurst, more specifically men. The men I met all told me they had been vaccinated at your prison without their consent. Is that a normal procedure? Was there an epidemic at your prison? How is it that these people were vaccinated or that they were injected with something without being told what it was and especially without their oral consent? They said they did not want to be injected with anything, but that was done. Explain that to me. I am all ears.

[Steven Small]

I'm sorry, I'm not aware that took place, and I'm not aware of what you're referring to.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Mr. Small, it's your prison. Maplehurst is your responsibility, isn't it?

[Steven Small]

Yes, it's one of our correctional institutions.