Evidence of meeting #36 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was toronto.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Adult Institutional Services and Organizational Effectiveness Division, Ontario Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services
Yes, they are done with their consent.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
All right. Thank you.
Incidentally, I would like to apologize, Mr. Small. You are entirely right in saying that you are not appearing here under a summons. I expressed myself very poorly. I meant that you had almost appeared via a summons since you had refused to appear. I want to offer my apologies.
Ms. Des Rosiers, in your practice, you have no doubt covered a number of demonstrations. I met some journalists, including Mr. Paikin and Ms. Amy Miller. I also spoke to some demonstrators. There increasingly appears to be a kind of criminalization of demonstrations. Moreover, and listening to my colleague Mr. Rathgeber ask Ms. Poisson and Ms. Mansour questions, I got the impression—and I may be mistaken, since this is an impression—that we didn't have a right to demonstrate in this country and that, in doing so we ran the risk of being immediately associated with the Black Bloc or I don't know what. I don't understand. Can you help me understand?
General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
The major concern of a civil liberties association is to ensure that rights and freedoms advocacy continues to be valued, honoured and integrated into the judicial system. The day when 20 international leaders meet in Toronto but no one is there to express their enthusiasm, support or disagreement, out of fear of being arrest or mistreated, we will have lost democracy. It is important to acknowledge that the right and freedom to demonstrate peacefully is an integral part of the exercise of a vibrant political culture.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Ms. Mourani, we do hear you, but your time is ten seconds over.
Bloc
Conservative
General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
One of the aspects that trouble us is the bail conditions that prevent people from subsequently demonstrating.
We are indeed seeing a lack of clear knowledge or appreciation of the role of the freedom to demonstrate, which is definitely an integral part of our democracy.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much, Ms. Des Rosiers.
We'll now move to Mr. McColeman.
Five minutes, please
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
I, too, would underscore my thanks for your being here.
I'd like to direct two questions, very quickly, to the Civil Liberties Association and Ms. Des Rosiers.
They revolve around two points brought up by the Liberal member, Mr. Kania, who was mainly talking from Liberal talking points and asking for one-word responses: yes or no.
You obviously have had a lot of experience looking at different security situations in your role as the Civil Liberties Association. Can I make that assumption?
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
And you've done a lot of study in this field.
Now on the cost, the security plan, as you probably know, was developed by Canada's best experts. We've been transparent about all the costs, not just parts of the costs but all the costs. The security experts, along with the Auditor General Sheila Fraser and the Parliamentary Budget Officer, have all confirmed that the costs were reasonable. The direct comparisons the media is making and the numbers the opposition is using to compare these summits are quite disingenuous and false because they are not fulsome in their accounting of these other situations.
I'd like your comments regarding that. Do you believe that to be true, from the research you've done?
General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
We have not looked at a comparison of the costs. Our expertise relates to the cost to civil liberties.
We know there will be additional costs because there are two large class action suits that have been instituted, so--
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Okay. Let me move on to the next question. I would have thought that with all of the discussion around the table today, perhaps you would have some knowledge on the comparisons.
The one you brought up, actually, was the APEC report.
The APEC report, which I will quote from, recommended that:
The RCMP must instill in its officers, by whatever educational or other means available, that they are to brook no intrusion or interference from government officials with respect to the provision of security services.
Now, this is in direct contradiction to what Mr. Kania was asserting, that somewhere up the ladder the politicians had influence in terms of directing the police. We are separate from the police, as politicians, and so should we be, in our opinion, because there are civilian organizations that oversee the police. His assertion was that it comes back to some minister, some bureaucratic person; it comes back perhaps to the Prime Minister who is somehow directing all of this, which is absolutely false.
In your opinion, does this recommendation in the APEC report further civil liberties?
General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
We don't know what happened at the G-20, but certainly I think the extent to which there is some separation...Ted Hughes recommended that there should be no political interference.
I agree with that. That's correct.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
And as far as the assertions made by the opposition on this issue, in your analysis of the G-8/G-20, do you believe there was political interference in the policing and the aspects that went into policing this?
General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
The position of the Civil Liberties Association is that we need a public inquiry because we do not understand how what happened, happened. I think that's one of the points, that it's unclear how the policing tone changed at 5 o'clock on the Saturday. We were there; we saw it. It seemed to us to be unwarranted, and we'd like to have answers.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Of course, I can understand your wanting answers. But the reality is that the operational side of the G-8/G-20 summits was handled, as Mr. Small alluded to in his comments, by an integrated unit of all police forces involved, including the federal police force.
General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Yes, including the RCMP.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Yes, including the RCMP.
But on the ground it was primarily foot soldiers from Toronto Police, the OPP--
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
--and other police forces across the country who lent some of their forces to this event. And there were some 20,000.
I might note, just as another side note to this, that we heard testimony two days ago about the fact that in the upcoming G-20, the country that's hosting is having 50,000 police officers to handle the security of that summit, compared to our 20,000.
Having said that--
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Mr. McColeman, thank you. Your time is up.
We're going to move to Mr. Kania.
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Although I'm a Liberal, in terms of the comments of my Conservative colleague, Mr. McColeman, whom I do respect, he mentioned quotes about how the costs were reasonable. I just want to quote directly from the presentation of the Minister of Public Safety, Mr. Toews, who was here two days ago. He said:
All claims for reimbursement are to be submitted to Public Safety by December 1, 2010. Once these claims are received, the final audits will commence, with the intent to have the process completed by March 31 of next year.
And he further states:
I can assure the committee that the government will respond to all questions posed on the security budget and costs, and it will deliver a full financial report on actual costs incurred once it is available.
I would suggest to you, and pose to the witnesses, that obviously at this point the full costs are not available, so it would be hard for anybody to say they're all reasonable.
I asked Minister Toews if he would commit to attending before the committee again so we could ask him those questions and he could substantiate the costs, and he declined, at least for that Monday, and said he would not make that commitment, which I was surprised about, considering he said he wants to be transparent.
But in any event, to all the witnesses, in Canada we have something called the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I think you've heard of it. Is that correct?
For the two witnesses who were arrested, I ask you--because I don't know what Mr. Rathgeber was suggesting--is it fair to assume that when you were coming to Toronto you didn't mean to do anything illegal, you didn't mean to break anything, and you didn't mean to hurt anybody, but you were simply trying to exercise your freedom of speech, which you are guaranteed under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and which you don't need to justify to anybody?