Evidence of meeting #4 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was needs.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Regional Coordinator, Institutional Mental Health, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
Do you mean statistics on from the time after they finish the program until the end of the sentence, whether or not they go back to substance abuse? Do you want to know about that?
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Yes, I think it's one thing we're interested in. If 80% of offenders coming into the institutions have substance abuse problems, which I think was in your presentation, then one thing we need to find out is whether the programming we're giving these people has any long-term success.
Regional Coordinator, Institutional Mental Health, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
Do you want to know about maintenance?
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
I would like to know that, if possible. Thank you.
On page seven of the presentation,you have some statistics on reoffending rates. Two things jumped out at me. One is that it shows how low the reoffending rate is for many people. I think you said that in 2008-09 CSC kept statistics on the rate for reoffending during supervision and only 0.74% of all supervised offenders reoffended during this period. It tells a layperson like myself that there is a very low rate for reoffending.
Deputy Commissioner, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
It's for mental health offenders.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
At the bottom of that, a closer look at the subgroup of offenders with mental health needs who were supervised showed that six offenders, or 1.48%, reoffended. Maybe there's a mistake. I take it the 0.74% is for all offenders. That's what it says. It's not only for people with mental health needs. It's for everybody.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
At the bottom, the 1.48% is for people with health needs. It's funny that it's exactly double, if my math is right. Twice as many people who have mental health needs reoffend. It's 1.48% versus 0.74%. It would seem to me it's to be expected that people with mental health needs would be a more challenged population.
Could you tell us what ideas corrections might have to help lower the rate of reoffending for people with mental health needs? It's clearly higher than the normal population.
Deputy Commissioner, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
I'll have to check the stats again. You have the English draft and I have the French one.
Yes, you're right.
We need to ensure clinically and also with the support of medication that we are able to stabilize the offenders. One of the challenges we have is to make sure that once they're released and after the end of the mandate, they will keep taking their medication and the network that we have put in place for them will remain. It's why it is so important for us to not only have, for example, the Martineau CCC, where we have specialized services, but to make sure that once they reach the end of the mandate they will have support in the community. It will make the difference in the success rate of the offender.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Do you have any suggestions to the committee on what specific resources in the community you think could be put in place to help those people with mental health needs? I take your point on making sure they take the medication, but what other community resource needs would be helpful to make sure they don't reoffend?
Deputy Commissioner, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
For example, at the CCC Martineau we have partnerships with community organizations that can support the offender in finding a job. It's not easy for an offender with mental health problems, but they can help the offenders. Also, we have specialized ateliers de réinsertion par le travail—supervised workshops for mental health cases. We have developed a partnership with workshops because their reintegration relies not only on the supervision of CSC but also on the capacity for them to develop positive relationships with work and with a support group network.
For example, in the Quebec region we have the chaplains. They provide, on a voluntary basis, support to the mental health cases. They are there Saturday nights; they have a special place to go to. They can go to watch hockey and they have volunteers with them. So they feel that they belong to a community and they know they can have support. They know they can phone a nurse or doctor. It's the same in other regions. One of the biggest challenges for us is to bridge our services to the provincial health care services. It's the only way we will really establish a continuum of services, because at the end of the mandate, we are no longer there. It's very important for us to build that bridge with the provincial health care.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you.
I have one clarification on these statistics you have quoted on page seven in the English text. Do those statistics apply to all of Canada, or only to your institutions in Quebec?
Conservative
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
Good afternoon and welcome to all the witnesses. I'm pleased to see you again, Ms. Vallée.
I just wanted to clarify something before asking my questions. Mrs. Mourani, I believe, spoke about Martineau CCC. Did I correctly understand that a child care centre was opened after Martineau CCC was built?
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
That makes us wonder why a child care centre was established or built near the site of an institution such as Martineau CCC, knowing what it was and without making every possible effort to allay concerns.
I seriously think that we have to give the population in that town a bit of credit. I would think they did their homework before they put a child day care in that place. So I'm sure they must have had some sense that it was a place that wouldn't be victimized.
Are there any specific incidents that you can tell me about with Martineau and anyone in the community being offended with these heinous crimes that have been described here? Have you got incidents?
Deputy Commissioner, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
With the kindergarten? No.
What we have done is not too long ago we approached the director of the kindergarten to invite someone from their board to participate in our citizen advisory committee for the CCC, because truly I understand their fear and their concern. But I truly believe we can explain to them how we manage and make sure that they don't have any problems.
As a matter of fact, each time that we release an offender into the community, throughout Canada, not only in Quebec, we notify the police, and the police and the community around the CCC will know who's coming. They will know in advance so they will be able to monitor the situation.
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
Okay. I wanted a clarification. I thought I heard it wrong.
Recently in my home province I celebrated with a company called Momentum Healthware Inc. They are producing software for different health care situations, and with some support form the Government of Canada and the National Research Council of Canada industrial research assistance program they have actually started an electronic tracking system that will help people suffering from mental health problems to address the continuum of care.
Do you have electronic health records that allow you to continue that continuum of care, which we all agree is very important?
Regional Coordinator, Institutional Mental Health, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
We're still working on the paper for the mental health file, but CSC is working on this and moving forward to having something electronic. That's going to solve sharing of information, tracking, and continuum of care, but we're not there yet. It's quite complicated because we need a huge software. It's very complicated. It needs to be bilingual.
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
I had a demonstration. It was fantastic. I believe in using all of the resources that are stakeholders in this problem and this willingness to help these people who suffer from mental illness. I would recommend it may be something you want to look at.
I want to move to another question, because I found it very interesting when I was on our tour. There was a woman that Mr. Davies and I met. She did not want to appear before all of the committee members because she was nervous: she suffers from mental health problems, and she also suffers from addiction. We spent some time with her asking her how she felt things were in the institution she was in. She commended the programming. She commended the things that were available.
I asked her what she would say to parliamentarians. If we could makes things better, what would she say to us? I was quite surprised at her response. She said to us, “Well, that's easy: have more consequences for the people inside who make brew, because I'm an addict and my treatment and my programming and the things I'm trying to do for myself are jeopardized because the consequence is a $5 fine.”
What are the consequences in prison, in your facilities, in the greater organization of the Correctional Service, for people within the organization who do things like this? How can we help this woman? What are the consequences for someone, for example, caught making brew in your institutions?
Deputy Commissioner, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
That depends. We could resort to disciplinary court, privileges could be suspended or visiting rights could be cancelled; there could be fines. That really depends on the situation and obviously on the individual's file. It varies. I don't have any specific details, but we could check what is being done with regard to drug and alcohol abuse.
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
I'd like to know what the harshest consequence is. In fact, I would like to know all the possible consequences.
Did you work for the correctional system or judicial system a number of years ago, when the provinces closed the provincial institutions specialized in mental health problems? Did anyone here work at the time of the old system? I'd like someone to draw a comparison between the old system and today's system because I think that has had an influence.
Deputy Commissioner, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
That was a long time ago. It started more than 30 years ago and was done gradually. I can talk about Quebec. Since it was done gradually, it's hard for us to draw a comparison. It was done in stages. We aren't old enough.
We're not old enough to do that. Sorry, we don't have that privilege.
Conservative
Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB
Back home, I believe it was 18 years ago that they closed the last...
Do you think there is any benefit to having institutions for individuals with mental health problems managed by the provinces, that is to say to stop those individuals before they become criminals? We've heard a lot of witnesses say that, if only the mental problems of those individuals had been identified before the crime was committed, they could have prevented them from being incarcerated in a federal prison.
Do you agree with that?